Flight Attendant

[AdAstraPerAspera]

However, as the AFA surely knows and I've said that that only applies when the AFA represents the FA's on both sides. That isn't the case here, so the AFA can't fall back on the "This is what we require" excuse. The federal law says that when different unions represent the two sides the procedure is negotiate/mediate/arbitrate to arrive at a "fair" integration.

Absolutely, and you are also right that DOH isn't asking for much from WN, but for some reason they aren't even open to that! They better be prepared for arbitration then... And they shouldn't be surprised if the arbitrator decides for relative seniority, and then TWU will only have themselves to blame...

 

[buscador]

Absolutely, and you are also right that DOH isn't asking for much from WN, but for some reason they aren't even open to that! They better be prepared for arbitration then... And they shouldn't be surprised if the arbitrator decides for relative seniority, and then TWU will only have themselves to blame...

Wow, so your saying that a FA from AT who has inferior work rules, inferior pay structure, inferior management, inferior benefits, no 401k, should get bought out by a superior company , which will add longevity to their career, add hundreds of thousands of dollars to their earning potential,, and they deserve it,, why exactly????? The AT FA should also get there date of hire,, wow,, what is the upside for any SWA FA who has chosen to work their butts off to get these work rules, who chose this airline,, WE GET NOTHING, but headaches and possible loss of seniority,, hey seems real fair to me..

Any airline that wants to buy SWA and give me my lottery ticket, increase my pay %40 and get paid more per trip, huge increase in quality of life,,, for doing absolutely nothing,, where do I sign...oops but one exception is that I am a realist and dont think that will happen...

AT can keep their date of hire ,, but give up something to be fair,, like stay on your inferior contract and work rules for 10 years,, give some effort to be fair... or just keep talking,, we saw how that went for the pilots,,, o yea I am sure you know this but that same AT group of pilots who screamed DOH or arbitratiion,, they walked away from a whopping $550 million by not allowing a vote and screaming and whining... so hang in there ,,adstwqhsoutp.. or who ever you are...

Why not steal as much as you can, you deserve it,, %40 payraises,, better quality of life,, yep I agree with you ,, your company paid you what you were willing to take meaning you agreed that was what you were worth,, so all of a sudden your wonderful disposition is now worth $40k more a year,, again makes complete sense to me,, I am so excited to have such incredible thinking innovators that I think it should be relative seniority,, AT #1 mindi should be #1 at swa,, she deserves it,, why dont we take the top 50 or so and just put them at the top of our list,, makes about the same sense to me,, Our 40 year girls will go right under those super senior 18 year girls,, then everyone is happy and we will be victorious,, where do I sign,, cause I dont need to even think about it,, AT deserves it,,no I say lets take the top 426 aT FA's who are really super super senior 10+ years,, put them all ontop of the list,,the top 426 at SWA have 30+years but the heck with them, they dont deserve a lottery ticket,, they just worked here to open the doors for those who really deserve it,, lets sign tomorrow and throw in $50k bonus to AT,, who needs unions and contracts,,,

Yep ,, I would have to agree with you ,, you were so eloquent that I never realized it until you spoke your point of view,, I tell you what why dont we do a reverse staple,, put all 2200 AT FA's on top,, why not,, I will show them around the plane, and when I am done.. I know, I will walk away happier employee and so will the other little group of 10,000,, welcome aboard,, here is the coke and o yea here is that seniority you worked so hard for,, again I never knew it till now,, you are right,, I apologize for ever mentioning fairness,, what a fool I look like,,,

 

[buscador]

However, as the AFA surely knows and I've said that that only applies when the AFA represents the FA's on both sides. That isn't the case here, so the AFA can't fall back on the "This is what we require" excuse. The federal law says that when different unions represent the two sides the procedure is negotiate/mediate/arbitrate to arrive at a "fair" integration. Nothing in the law says that DOH has to be used although I agree that DOH should be preferable to the WN FA's that combining the two groups by a ratio from top to bottom. But I can see how a junior WN FA might not consider it too fair if they saw most of the FL FA's go above them while they remained junior.

Of course, like with the pilots, Kelly could exert some influence over the process...

Jim

And we all pray he does, thanks Jim for the level headed input,, most I talk to want to know if GK can keep AT as a susidiary and keep it that way without a SOC,, keep them on their pay scales and they can have all the seniority they want,, I dont think is is possible or prudent from the business side of things,, but would make things a lot less ugly,,

Have a good holiday

 

[buscador]

What is FAIR about being stapled to the bottom??

DOH is the absolute fairest way, with a fence at ATL to prevent any displacement by any WN f/a. Even the most senior flight attendant at FL is junior to the majority of WN hags. Your advocating stapling to the bottom is not only offensive but typical of an arrogant WN flight attendant who thinks they belong to a company that is God's Gift to Air Travel. Get real. You think you "saved" AirTran? That you're some red-bellied knight in puke-orange armor? Guess what. AirTran was profitable and doing just fine before Gary Kelly came along. And you know what else? Many of you guys are going to lose some relative seniority in the final SLI deal, because you guys don't serve cokes any better than we do. Get over yourselves.

PS,,, read my posts,, I NEVER EVER said staple,,, hold on cause you may not be familiar with this term,,, That wouldnt be,,hold on here it comes,,,FAIR,,, never said staple,, but give up something ..arrogance ,, wow,, AT wants everything and we should just accept that,, because??

Arrogance is walking into someone elses home, not taking off your shoes,, robbing the fridge of all the food and scream you deserve it,, then wipe your hands on the nice towel,, laugh and not ever say thank you,,, but your right,, SWA is arrogant because they get NOTHING out of this deal and should just lay back and take it,, again I stand corrected,,

 

[WorldTraveler]

PS,,, read my posts,, I NEVER EVER said staple,,, hold on cause you may not be familiar with this term,,, That wouldnt be,,hold on here it comes,,,FAIR,,, never said staple,, but give up something ..arrogance ,, wow,, AT wants everything and we should just accept that,, because??

Arrogance is walking into someone elses home, not taking off your shoes,, robbing the fridge of all the food and scream you deserve it,, then wipe your hands on the nice towel,, laugh and not ever say thank you,,, but your right,, SWA is arrogant because they get NOTHING out of this deal and should just lay back and take it,, again I stand corrected,,

hey buscador,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
perhaps the issue that most of us on the outside have is that FL employees didn't ask to visit your house... their company was acquired and their world was interrupted by the merger. When you invite someone to your house, it is customary to treat them w/ some degree of respect.
We see this whole LUV thing as running a tad shallow when you tell the FL people that you want their assets but you really don't want the people.
And yes, the company does have the power to control the situation - it is not just about labor integration. If WN didn't see this coming and wasn't willing to ensure that the FL people were well-treated in this process, then the company's reputation is at stake and the cmopany could spend the money to either keep the groups separate or provide a sufficiently long transition period to ensure that FL people aren't punished for being bought by WN.
Perhaps FL people shouldn't be raised immediately to WN pay levels and be given full access that WN people have - but FL people should not be harmed in the transaction.... many of us expect no less than that in this transaction.
We who have watched the legacy carriers for decades and seen one bad merger after another find it very hard to watch what is playing out in front of us - and even more so from a company that has touted a culture that is so heavily focused on people.

 

[buscador]

hey buscador,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
perhaps the issue that most of us on the outside have is that FL employees didn't ask to visit your house... their company was acquired and their world was interrupted by the merger. When you invite someone to your house, it is customary to treat them w/ some degree of respect.
We see this whole LUV thing as running a tad shallow when you tell the FL people that you want their assets but you really don't want the people.
And yes, the company does have the power to control the situation - it is not just about labor integration. If WN didn't see this coming and wasn't willing to ensure that the FL people were well-treated in this process, then the company's reputation is at stake and the cmopany could spend the money to either keep the groups separate or provide a sufficiently long transition period to ensure that FL people aren't punished for being bought by WN.
Perhaps FL people shouldn't be raised immediately to WN pay levels and be given full access that WN people have - but FL people should not be harmed in the transaction.... many of us expect no less than that in this transaction.
We who have watched the legacy carriers for decades and seen one bad merger after another find it very hard to watch what is playing out in front of us - and even more so from a company that has touted a culture that is so heavily focused on people.

I agree, I am not irrational and your points are taken, well PUT...but we didnt want/ask for it either(employees),, FL people shouldnt be harmed, I agree, but harmed isnt getting huge payraises, better company,,etc,,harmed isnt taking everything they can take from the situation.. I understand the whole POM POM thing that comes from SWA suits/HQ and how it gets old to the outside world,, believe me....

You think SWA employees are ecstatic ,, we get NOTHING out of this deal,, isnt that more harmed ,, this is big business and we are all just employees,, but its the employees that have to work face to face with the customer, with each other,,,

SWA employees get no pay raise, no upgrades,,, we are ok with that,, but not when AT employees are demanding DOH, demanding it all,,,,, does this not make sense,, we cant get along when we say,, hey SWA employees didnt see this coming or didnt ask for this,, but lets make this work,, then we put out our hand just to find out our watch and wallet are gone,,,

I am not a STAPLE guy, I think fairness should defined by equal pain felt from both sides,,DOH is all PAIN felt by the SWA employees ONLY,,, believe me,, go back before May and have all the FL employees vote, the SWA employees vote.. I guarantee that more than double the percentage of FL employees compared to SWA would of been a YES vote to this whole deal,,, I have taken AT many times over the years preceeding this deal, the rumor of SWA buying AT has been around since 05,, just about every AT FA I met said 2 things to me,,, 1- have you heard you guys are buying us out,,, and # 2-that would be fine with us because our mgmt here sucks,,,, NEVER once have I heard a SWA employee say I hope FL buys us out, never ever ONCE,,

So lets not confuse Big Business, inorganic growth,casm, load factors etc,,, unless you are wearing a suit you dont have an ounce of say in all that... AT cant scream Victim if they are doing the fleecing!!! from a strictly swa employees point of view,, thats what most of the SWA people are saying and feeling if DOH is handed out,, because personally the SWA employees have nothing to gain,,

The Pilots at SWA werent jumping up for joy with their agreement,, you cant make everyone happy I understand,, but AT FA's can try to pretend they see middle ground , make an effort at good Faith,,, or pretend see,, that they are getting FAR MORE personally than any SWA employee,,

Bottom line for any employee at any company breaks down to the simple basics,,, MONEY, Quality of life, Happiness in working for that company,,,and in the Airlines as we all know Seniority

So unfortunately or fortunately for FL employees, they got bought out,,, now they have a chance to upgrade in all 4 areas,, so Take one,,,1- Pay raise, QOL,,,, or 2- take Seniority,, but not both,, at least they have a choice,, SWA fa's have only one choice, to fight for our portion of ONLY option 2....

Again I am not irrational, and try to understand both sides ,, but to scream you deserve everything attitude doesnt sit well with the SWA employees that I talk too,,at least try to see it from our point of view,, DOH is taking it ALL.. read the mechs site and they have come off of the DOH demands and realise that a %30 one time hit in seniority with no fences, loa's would be a show of good faith,, I agree,,, not a staple,, Show some good faith and we all can work face to face and move fwd,,

 

[signals]

All I have to say is I'm glad I don't have these mergers, buyouts,takeovers,etc., associated with the airlines!

No offense but nothing is fair in life, and business is business that's the reality of life.

A scenario in my world is that a higher government agency would take over, and the rumors exist to that effect. But the politics involved mean it won't happen. I also know to never say never.

As far as my experience with unions in general...when you move to a new union, you start at the bottom. Your DOH starts on that day, and anyone else hired on that day, seniority is by the initial of your last name. That's how it usually works, but your industry makes it so complicated that the frustration makes you give up :unsure:

A scenario for US pilots would be that since AWA acquired them, AWA would have the seniority and US would have to duke it out by themselves...but the ones on the bottom don't see it that way.

My take on WN/FL merger would be that WN would retain their seniority and FL would have a new DOH, and seniority based on last names. That is how regular unions work, but yours has different laws and by laws,but in reality that is FAIR. If you don't want to use an alphabetical order, then give FL a month for each year of service.

This has just been a hypothetical situation and although totally wrong, it's just my 2 cents!

 

[WorldTraveler]

well said, Buscador.
I understand and appreciate that WN employees have gotten ahead by building the company - and receiving rewards based on their individual and collective work.
Acquiring companies is a completely different means by which WN is attempting to grow the company - and you are completely right that mgmt has not figured out how to make you all win by integrating workforces... and thus we see the disconnect between groups - who can only see one side winning at the expense of the other.
.
WN mgmt CAN control that outcome - particularly through finances... but apparently the FL enterprise doesn't generate enough revenue to allow WN employees themselves to also benefit financially by integrating... and you are right that FL employees will eventually be brought up to WN pay levels.
It all comes down to managing expectations - about what the new enterprise can support in terms of increased pay for each employee group.... there are indeed only so many ways to combine workforces - and someone will be unhappy no matter how you do it. But in the absence of being able to throw money to make people happy, the least the company could do is support fences long and high enough to prevent FL people from being harmed. At the minimum, if either FL or WN people are harmed in any significant way, there is no incentive for the unions to support full integration.
.
My recommendation at this point would be to fence the FL operations and people for a stated period of time, state the time frame when those fences will come down, and then make it clear that preserving the culture that has made WN what it is will be the only acceptable solution - and thus FL people have a few years to figure out if they want to be part of that or move on.
But there is also no assurance that the pay raises the company WN was giving its employees could have continued this year and next... WN's business model had to change and its revenue metrics were coming up short even before the FL acquisition... integrity would be admitting that the environment and the FL merger are two different things and WN people themselves have to adapt as well.

 

[buscador]

All I have to say is I'm glad I don't have these mergers, buyouts,takeovers,etc., associated with the airlines!

No offense but nothing is fair in life, and business is business that's the reality of life.

A scenario in my world is that a higher government agency would take over, and the rumors exist to that effect. But the politics involved mean it won't happen. I also know to never say never.

As far as my experience with unions in general...when you move to a new union, you start at the bottom. Your DOH starts on that day, and anyone else hired on that day, seniority is by the initial of your last name. That's how it usually works, but your industry makes it so complicated that the frustration makes you give up :unsure:

A scenario for US pilots would be that since AWA acquired them, AWA would have the seniority and US would have to duke it out by themselves...but the ones on the bottom don't see it that way.

My take on WN/FL merger would be that WN would retain their seniority and FL would have a new DOH, and seniority based on last names. That is how regular unions work, but yours has different laws and by laws,but in reality that is FAIR. If you don't want to use an alphabetical order, then give FL a month for each year of service.

This has just been a hypothetical situation and although totally wrong, it's just my 2 cents!

Hey Signals , where you been,, you been chasing WT through cyberspace havent you ,,

Have a good holiday

 

[buscador]

well said, Buscador.
I understand and appreciate that WN employees have gotten ahead by building the company - and receiving rewards based on their individual and collective work.
Acquiring companies is a completely different means by which WN is attempting to grow the company - and you are completely right that mgmt has not figured out how to make you all win by integrating workforces... and thus we see the disconnect between groups - who can only see one side winning at the expense of the other.
.
WN mgmt CAN control that outcome - particularly through finances... but apparently the FL enterprise doesn't generate enough revenue to allow WN employees themselves to also benefit financially by integrating... and you are right that FL employees will eventually be brought up to WN pay levels.
It all comes down to managing expectations - about what the new enterprise can support in terms of increased pay for each employee group.... there are indeed only so many ways to combine workforces - and someone will be unhappy no matter how you do it. But in the absence of being able to throw money to make people happy, the least the company could do is support fences long and high enough to prevent FL people from being harmed. At the minimum, if either FL or WN people are harmed in any significant way, there is no incentive for the unions to support full integration.
.
My recommendation at this point would be to fence the FL operations and people for a stated period of time, state the time frame when those fences will come down, and then make it clear that preserving the culture that has made WN what it is will be the only acceptable solution - and thus FL people have a few years to figure out if they want to be part of that or move on.
But there is also no assurance that the pay raises the company WN was giving its employees could have continued this year and next... WN's business model had to change and its revenue metrics were coming up short even before the FL acquisition... integrity would be admitting that the environment and the FL merger are two different things and WN people themselves have to adapt as well.

Exactly,, believe me and you and I have chatted about this before... the pay can and will change and more times than not it is in a downward motion,,, Fences sounds like a good idea, keeping FL in their comfort zone and their own seniority, as well as keeping them under their current pay scales,,benefits packages,, perfect,, no one comes out , no SWa goes in 5-10 years is fine... at least they will have what they have now and arent taking all we have now,,, I dont care who you are , if you take it all.. you have taken far too much,,, Fairness is a pillow we all can sleep on,,

Thanks for the input WT, have a merry xmas

 

[pilotswife]

Do not believe all the hype about SWA, get ready to be brain washed in Dallas, They will tell you how lucky and fortunate u r to be hired out a million applicants, the idea is to make you feel like you owe them something so they can work you to death, they like to put down other airlines, very arrogant and unprofessional not realizing that in this industry things can turn quickly, SWA and their arrogance needs to be humbled.

Oh they ALL do that!!! I drank THAT kool-aid at AS. My friends at SWA have no real complaints, I think you'd be happy working there! I know I would! I check their job postings daily, been rejected countless times. I'm not giving up ever.

 

[signals]

Hey Signals , where you been,, you been chasing WT through cyberspace havent you ,,

Have a good holiday

Well happy belated holidays to you too, buscador.

You aren't going to believe this, but WT and I have actually found common ground and agree on what's happening with the AA BK situation. We agree AA should be a allowed to restructure itself and that the merger kings at USeless Trailways should keep out.

It's hilarioUS to watch the merger talk and all, and reminding them how well that 2005 merger has gone and is going

It's like a Maple Street experiment out of the Twilight Zone! Next time I'm going to start a WN/US merger just to get their hopes up!

 

[buscador]

Well happy belated holidays to you too, buscador.

You aren't going to believe this, but WT and I have actually found common ground and agree on what's happening with the AA BK situation. We agree AA should be a allowed to restructure itself and that the merger kings at USeless Trailways should keep out.

It's hilarioUS to watch the merger talk and all, and reminding them how well that 2005 merger has gone and is going

It's like a Maple Street experiment out of the Twilight Zone! Next time I'm going to start a WN/US merger just to get their hopes up!

Wow, cats and dogs getting along together would of been easier to believe,,lol,, the wonders of the internet

 

[WorldTraveler]

Wow, cats and dogs getting along together would of been easier to believe,,lol,, the wonders of the internet

it is pretty incredible...
Signals and I will just form a partnership on the internet here regarding rooting for AA against US - and while we are at it we'll root for WN and its historically hard working folk to see the benefits of all that FL and its people have built - and find enough common ground to build a good, strong company long term.
For those who embrace what the merger can bring and the people involved in the process, it could be the beginning of another great chapter in the history of Southwest Airlines.

 

[lineguy43]

I agree, I am not irrational and your points are taken, well PUT...but we didnt want/ask for it either(employees),, FL people shouldnt be harmed, I agree, but harmed isnt getting huge payraises, better company,,etc,,harmed isnt taking everything they can take from the situation.. I understand the whole POM POM thing that comes from SWA suits/HQ and how it gets old to the outside world,, believe me....

You think SWA employees are ecstatic ,, we get NOTHING out of this deal,, isnt that more harmed ,, this is big business and we are all just employees,, but its the employees that have to work face to face with the customer, with each other,,,

SWA employees get no pay raise, no upgrades,,, we are ok with that,, but not when AT employees are demanding DOH, demanding it all,,,,, does this not make sense,, we cant get along when we say,, hey SWA employees didnt see this coming or didnt ask for this,, but lets make this work,, then we put out our hand just to find out our watch and wallet are gone,,,

I am not a STAPLE guy, I think fairness should defined by equal pain felt from both sides,,DOH is all PAIN felt by the SWA employees ONLY,,, believe me,, go back before May and have all the FL employees vote, the SWA employees vote.. I guarantee that more than double the percentage of FL employees compared to SWA would of been a YES vote to this whole deal,,, I have taken AT many times over the years preceeding this deal, the rumor of SWA buying AT has been around since 05,, just about every AT FA I met said 2 things to me,,, 1- have you heard you guys are buying us out,,, and # 2-that would be fine with us because our mgmt here sucks,,,, NEVER once have I heard a SWA employee say I hope FL buys us out, never ever ONCE,,

So lets not confuse Big Business, inorganic growth,casm, load factors etc,,, unless you are wearing a suit you dont have an ounce of say in all that... AT cant scream Victim if they are doing the fleecing!!! from a strictly swa employees point of view,, thats what most of the SWA people are saying and feeling if DOH is handed out,, because personally the SWA employees have nothing to gain,,

The Pilots at SWA werent jumping up for joy with their agreement,, you cant make everyone happy I understand,, but AT FA's can try to pretend they see middle ground , make an effort at good Faith,,, or pretend see,, that they are getting FAR MORE personally than any SWA employee,,

Bottom line for any employee at any company breaks down to the simple basics,,, MONEY, Quality of life, Happiness in working for that company,,,and in the Airlines as we all know Seniority

So unfortunately or fortunately for FL employees, they got bought out,,, now they have a chance to upgrade in all 4 areas,, so Take one,,,1- Pay raise, QOL,,,, or 2- take Seniority,, but not both,, at least they have a choice,, SWA fa's have only one choice, to fight for our portion of ONLY option 2....

Again I am not irrational, and try to understand both sides ,, but to scream you deserve everything attitude doesnt sit well with the SWA employees that I talk too,,at least try to see it from our point of view,, DOH is taking it ALL.. read the mechs site and they have come off of the DOH demands and realise that a %30 one time hit in seniority with no fences, loa's would be a show of good faith,, I agree,,, not a staple,, Show some good faith and we all can work face to face and move fwd,,

Again you SWA employees do not get it.. There is a reason your company went after FL..Your model which as worked so well up to now is in jeopardy. This industry is changing rapidly. Consolidation is going on all over and SWA was poised to be on the outside looking in. SWA is making a move to keep them viable and competitive but YOU the employees of SWA cannot see that. I can see how your myopic view is seeing this but you all at SW need to face the facts. You will ALL benefit from a more healthy and strong SWA and what happens now will effect your future. I know you personally are not for a staple but I am pretty sure you want something close to it as most other SW employees want. Me personally I have no dog in this fight but I always have been a fan of DOH even in my merger at NWA and RC. You are all going to working together real soon and a divided and angry workforce will most definitely kill the SWA sprit and hurt the one thing you guys have had over any other airline out there. That is a company who seemingly treat its employees very well and does its best to keep you guys happy ( and I know you never make everyone happy) but you guys are closer than anyone else by a long shot. Think about it be reasonable and try to give the FL guys/gals a fair shake. I think you will all be better for it.