First Class - Going, Going, Gone?

[ELP_WN_Psgr]

This is compensation for the idiotic fares structures and the rules that passengers have to deal with. How long do you think a restaurant would stay in business if it charged its customers the way the legacy carriers charge their passengers? Let's see... pay for dinner 21 days in advance and it's $200. Pay for dinner the day of the meal it's $850. You say you don't want to wait until your dinner reservation this evening at 7 pm but would rather join us for lunch? Well that will be $25 change fee please.

I may be in the minority on this forum, but I think I am in a majority when it comes to the traveling public.

Those of us in "the main cabin" "coach" or "steerage" (you decide which your cabin most resembles would like more value and less hassle and a more comfortable main cabin.

Junk the first class seats. They are being occupied by people who have a gazillion miles because their employers are too dumb (or too busy, or have more money than sense) to monitor the fact their employees are flying from RDU to CLT via LAX in order to accumulate their gazillion miles to keep there rump firmly planted in F.

Stretch out the pitch a little. There is a huge difference in perception between 30" and 32 or 33"

Why does WN carry a lot of folks....including business travelers? Is it their F cabin? The perks that being platinum zircon encrusted medallion members give them?

No. The answer is they carry a lot of passengers and make a bunch of money because they give their passengers value.

1. Walk up fares that aren't in the "OH MY GOD!!!" category.

2. A very simple and hassle free experience. You buy a ticket. You get on the plane. You go.

3. A reasonable degree that your expectations will be met. You buy a ticket on WN, you are going to be on a full sized jet with a WN crew. I buy a ticket on US....well, I might be on US, or I might be on Mesa, or Mom's Airlines, or Ed's International Airways, or Chataqua, or Shuttle America....on anything ranging from a Curtiss Jenny to a Cessna 402 to a Beech 1900 (life's a beech, isn't it?) to the Concorde. Well, I exaggerate, but you get the point.

The answer to all life's ills is to simplify. Simplify the fare structure. Simplify the fleet. Simplify the cabin. One class of service.....your theory ought to be everything is first class...all passengers are treated well. Get rid of the affiliate carriers and operate your flights under your own name. All that code share stuff is confusing nonsense that doesn't accrue to the bottom line. If not having a code share partner was harmful your friends at WN wouldn't be churning out profits.

I didn't want this thread to turn into a U vs WN argument....it's just that the idea of junking F....IF you combine it with other changes....could bear some fruit. They are proof.

 

[USFlyer]

ELP_WN_Psgr -

FWIW, the codeshares are VERY valuable to me as an international traveler and as a traveler that often goes to many smaller cities WN wouldn't even consider serving. WN doesn't need them being a point to point carrier, but the majors, with their hub and spoke networks, really do as they can't each possibly serve all of those smaller markets. Also, with regards to the affiliates, there's one HUGE problem there: Financing. No one is about to lend US any more cash, so the only way they get the revenue is to have an affiliate operate the flight.

 

[BoeingBoy]

ELP_WN_Psgr,

If we were starting an airline from scratch, your suggestions would be very appropriate. Unfortunately, that's not the position we find ourselves in. We have airplane leases going out to 2023, gate leases at small airports like AVL, CRW, ORF, etc not to mention all the gates we lease but wouldn't need at PHL, CLT, and PIT. The list of things tying us to a hub/spoke model goes on and on. There is neither money or time to start over with a completely different business model.

All we on the "giving" end can hope for is that our fearful leader will awake tomorrow and have an epiphany.

Jim

 

[ELP_WN_Psgr]

The REAL bottom line is not whether code shares are very valuable to YOU as a passenger, but whether or not they translate to money in black ink (rather than red) at the bottom of the company's balance sheet.

Right now, I would suggest that you could take everything...and I do mean EVERYTHING, that US does, do completely the opposite, and not do any worse than is already being done.

In the big scheme of things it doesn't what me or you or anything else thinks is important. What matters to the success (and possibly even survival of this firm) is giving the huddled masses what they are willing to pay for in numbers large enough to make a buck.

F isn't it. Code shares aren't either. What matters is butts in seats after having paid a fare that exceeds the cost of production.

One way to do that is carry a lot of people. The other way is to avoid incurring expenses that dont translate into more butts in seats.

 

[USFlyer]

What I'm curious to see is whether WN will ultimately match what jetBlue and Airtran are doing IFE-wise. On just my flight the other day I overheard folks saying they would never fly Southwest again after having flown jetBlue. Also, remember ATA is adding F while Airtran and AWA have F/J class cabins -- all are profitable as well. Also, AWA codeshares. Remember, the codeshare actually makes it EASIER than interlining; therefore, I would submit in the long run it reduces costs.

 

[TomBascom]

I may be in the minority on this forum, but I think I am in a majority when it comes to the traveling public.

That depends on how you count your votes. If we do it the way airlines measure safety -- by passenger miles -- then the frequent fliers almost certainly trump the not so frequent fliers. There may not be so many of us in a "one man one vote" environment but we buy 50 or so tickets for every 1 that Joe Sixpack visiting Mickey buys. You don't need a whole lot of F seats to serve both. But without the F seats and the service that goes with them US has precious little to offer -- WN is a *much* better coach product for all the reasons that you've listed and a bunch that you didn't bother with.

US is causing a lot of trouble by trying to pack too many people into too few seats while chasing "load factor". I never used to see "sold out" flights on the web site (or find them when calling in). These days they're a plague. In the bad old days that may not have been such a big thing -- people probably worked with res to find a slightly different time or routing or maybe worked a different set of dates. But the nature of the web is such that another airline now gets that traffic. Your customers are only a click away from reserving a seat on a competitor. As soon as they see that "x" in the flight that they were thinking about they go somewhere else...

Customer behaviors have changed but a lot of the old assumptions are still being used to manage the company.

When you consistently run system wide load factors in the high 70s (or worse) that means that your peak travle periods are buried -- they have to be in order to balance Wednesday morning etc. And guess what happens to those last minute walk-up fares? That's right -- someone else gets them. Shrinking to high load factors is a vicious cycle...

 

[hopethingswillbeok]

Also do you know how many Chairmans, Gold and Silver only use so many miles to receive a free ticket in coach and then beg you to upgrade them free of charge, well as I clealy explain to them they had the option to purchase first class free tickets but they decided to use less miles to fly and they will have to sit in coach, they take your name and inform you that they will contact so and so because you will not upgrade them......Had a Chairmans the other day, advised me he was a lawyer and he thought maybe something feel on his head when he arrived, but if I would upgrade his family of four on x couch tickets he would try to forget about it, advise him I am sorry, but can not upgrade them........he was not happy and asked again my name

 

[tadjr]

The REAL bottom line is not whether code shares are very valuable to YOU as a passenger, but whether or not they translate to money in black ink (rather than red) at the bottom of the company's balance sheet.

I cant speak for ALL the codeshare flights, but I do know that the 2 Full Fare Business class tickets with a LH flight number operated by US to CLT and LH to MUC put SOME money in the bank that might have gone to someone else without the code share.

 

[mweiss]

F isn't it. Code shares aren't either. What matters is butts in seats after having paid a fare that exceeds the cost of production.

Revenue exceeding fost may, indeed be the goal (in fact it is), but F and code shares are a potential means of reaching that goal. Just because WN makes money doesn't mean it's the only way to make money.

Sears could try to be Wal-Mart, and they'd still go bankrupt, because nobody out-Wal-Marts Wal-Mart.

 

[USFlyer]

Actually, that's a good point. Many companies, including mine, will not pay for domestic F or domestic upgrades but will willingly pay for a business class ticket abroad. You can't send folks abroad for business, with all the stresses inherent in overseas travel, and then nickle and dime them. My brother actually had to go to FRA for work. He wanted to fly US. He even offered to fly Coach on US. No dice, company made him buy a business class ticket on NW. (NW is their preferred carrier as they do A LOT of trips to NRT.) So there are some benefits to having an F cabin.

 

[PITbull]

The REAL bottom line is not whether code shares are very valuable to YOU as a passenger, but whether or not they translate to money in black ink (rather than red) at the bottom of the company's balance sheet.

Right now, I would suggest that you could take everything...and I do mean EVERYTHING, that US does, do completely the opposite, and not do any worse than is already being done.

In the big scheme of things it doesn't what me or you or anything else thinks is important. What matters to the success (and possibly even survival of this firm) is giving the huddled masses what they are willing to pay for in numbers large enough to make a buck.

F isn't it. Code shares aren't either. What matters is butts in seats after having paid a fare that exceeds the cost of production.

One way to do that is carry a lot of people. The other way is to avoid incurring expenses that dont translate into more butts in seats.

The "cattle car" theory works for SW because they have a simple business model and they have already set the "expectation" and have made it consistant throughout their 30 years.

As boeing boy said, if we were starting from the beginning, it may have worked.

I go further to say that if all airlines mirrored SW, then SW product would not be unique and it would be a race to the bottom for all, including SW.

What I believe works in today's new environment is not who has the lowest fares, but the airline who offers a reasonable fare for the service and unique product they provide. Consistency is important as well as simplicity.

However, FC is a product that should not be tossed. There are many business travelers that need the Spread-out room" to work when they fly. And if they are frequent flyers, they work alot in the air.

FC element, advanced seating and seat assignments, free drinks on certain domestic competitive markets, and scheduling flights often on major competitive routes is equally important when "creating the product that has value to what the customer wants and needs". "Spreading the word" through marketing campaigns and defining the product for the public to know what to expect is "key" as well.

Meeting that expectation consistently is the difference between success and failure.

 

[Busdrvr]

Piney, Hillarious!!!!

FWIW, Amarillo make a great vacation!! Lot's of nuclear storage and a GREAT "chili pie" at the airport resturant!! Or if you try Midland, TX, be sure and try "Micheal's" for BBQ!!! Beats the beaches of the Caribean ANYDAY!!

 

[mweiss]

I go further to say that if all airlines mirrored SW, then SW product would not be unique and it would be a race to the bottom for all, including SW.

What I believe works in today's new environment is not who has the lowest fares, but the airline who offers a reasonable fare for the service and unique product they provide. Consistency is important as well as simplicity.

Two statements from PITbull that I agree with, without any caveats. What is this world coming to?

 

[PITbull]

Wifey: I want to go where PineyBob & PITBull went last year, they had such fun! I think it was Costa Rica

LOL...


Hey Bob, I must have slept through that vacation... was I any good, and did we have fun??? Let me know, will ya...my memory escapes me...

 

[longing4piedmont]

What I believe works in today's new environment is not who has the lowest fares, but the airline who offers a reasonable fare for the service and unique product they provide. Consistency is important as well as simplicity.

However, FC is a product that should not be tossed. There are many business travelers that need the Spread-out room" to work when they fly. And if they are frequent flyers, they work alot in the air.

FC element, advanced seating and seat assignments, free drinks on certain domestic competitive markets, and scheduling flights often on major competitive routes is equally important when "creating the product that has value to what the customer wants and needs". "Spreading the word" through marketing campaigns and defining the product for the public to know what to expect is "key" as well.

Meeting that expectation consistently is the difference between success and failure.

Be still my heart! I knew we would eventually agree on something!

Have a good night!