First 242-Tonne MTOW A333 rolls out for Delta

[topDawg]

I didn't ever equate thrust to thrust to range.
 
I did equate it to performance because that is what it does.
 
on clean runways and normal weather, the PW 333s have enough power to do what they need to do.  but in higher temps, contaminated runways or other obstacles which are common, extra power makes a difference. 
 
and DL's decision to now operate the 330 with all 3 engine manufacturers shows that there are clearly other factors at play that make it worth DL's while not to have tried to standardize the engines.   

There is a lot in play. 
 
but you will never be able to figure out what it is. (and remember Rollers is the only choice for the 338/339) 
 

 
Actually it shows they are driving up costs as it's more expensive to have so many engine types for one fleet

Yes and know. They are getting sent out for work but its still a Pratt 4000 or a CF6 so shouldn't have to worry to much about the extra cost with all the PW4000-94s and CF6-80C2s in the fleet. 
 

you tell us... but since engines stay on the wing for years at a time and for now, DL doesn't overhaul those engines anyway (for now), it is likely the excess inventory is a whole lot less than you think.
 
and what you and I have no idea regarding is what DL actually paid for those engines or the service behind them. 
 
given that GE and PW were both shut out for 100 onwing large engines plus spares for the new Airbus, it is clear that Rolls was willing to deal for the big order for new aircraft but GE had an advantage for a smaller order of engines for existing models. 
 
and further, you clearly haven't figured out that DL has used its fleet COMPEXITY to increase its maintenance capabilities which it SELLS.
 
If DL adds some of the complexity of its own fleet to its MRO capabilities, it very well might end up better off.
 
DL Tech Ops is the largest airline MRO in the Americas.     
 
not only can they do things that other airlines can't but they also know the cost of that complexity and how to make it work for DL's bottom line. 

All true, but they don't work the 330 engines in-house. (and could overhaul and test cell run both the PW4068 and CF6-80E1)) 

 

[WorldTraveler]

which means that DL still could have gotten a better price from GE for the current generation 330s and engines and in time DL either will send those engines out at prices as good as what DL could have gotten for any other engine in that class or DL will be able to do some or all of the new engines inhouse - but that is all dependent on costs that will be incurred years from now. the first GE powered 333s haven't even entered the fleet and it will be several more years before they need to be overhauled.

The reason DL is moving now on the large engine test cell is to be ready for when those engines start to need overhauls. DL's fleet is moving to larger engines with the retirement of 744s and accelerated 767 retirements. replacement engines won't eeed overhauls for years.

 

[topDawg]

which means that DL still could have gotten a better price from GE for the current generation 330s and engines and in time DL either will send those engines out at prices as good as what DL could have gotten for any other engine in that class or DL will be able to do some or all of the new engines inhouse - but that is all dependent on costs that will be incurred years from now. the first GE powered 333s haven't even entered the fleet and it will be several more years before they need to be overhauled.

The reason DL is moving now on the large engine test cell is to be ready for when those engines start to need overhauls. DL's fleet is moving to larger engines with the retirement of 744s and accelerated 767 retirements. replacement engines won't eeed overhauls for years.

Two things
 
again, Delta has signed a service agreement for the big CF6s. (OnePoint) so for the time being they will be sent out
 
second Delta can run 68K engines in-house now. 70-72K is about as much that can be ran in the large cells. They don't do them just cause. Same with the CFM56-5As.  

 

[southwind]

Hmmm, maybe why DL is building a new facility with a bigger test cell.

 

[topDawg]

Hmmm, maybe why DL is building a new facility with a bigger test cell.

Hmmm maybe that has nothing to do with the PW4068 and CF6-80E1s...... 

 

[WorldTraveler]

and you know the length of the contract for the CF6s? and you also have been briefed on what DL will or will not do with the new facilities?

given that you have acknowledged that some work has been done inhouse and then shifted out and vice versa, it would appear nothing is etched in stone.

clearly there are people who have access to information on what stays inhoues and what goes out.

I'd love to pick their brain but for now I have to believe they have rational reasons for the decisions they have made.

but since I actually can trust someone to make the right decision, that apparently in your mind is pushing company propaganda.

 

[WorldTraveler]

from the AA forum which might validate your statement, dawg, that DL might end up becoming the RR MRO for the new RR engines.

"Kirby said at DWH that RR doesn't want to add other engine types to TAESL."

 

[topDawg]

and you know the length of the contract for the CF6s? and you also have been briefed on what DL will or will not do with the new facilities?

given that you have acknowledged that some work has been done inhouse and then shifted out and vice versa, it would appear nothing is etched in stone.

clearly there are people who have access to information on what stays inhoues and what goes out.

I'd love to pick their brain but for now I have to believe they have rational reasons for the decisions they have made.

but since I actually can trust someone to make the right decision, that apparently in your mind is pushing company propaganda.

I believe it was 10 years. I don't need to be briefed, adding the E1 motor could be done overnight and done on the current CF6 line and ran in the current test cells. 
 

from the AA forum which might validate your statement, dawg, that DL might end up becoming the RR MRO for the new RR engines.

"Kirby said at DWH that RR doesn't want to add other engine types to TAESL."

Don already validated it. It will be interesting to see what Delta does moving forward but i am also very interested to see what happens with TEASL. If I were AA i would be going after a deal with GE for the GEnx. (I would also do so if I were United) 200 engines in the US alone so plenty of work.... 
 
If you can, go to the TechOps page, Dons Corner and read the feb call transcripts. Some interesting things there of what Delta will be doing. Good news all around. (still no V2500s but im still holding out hope.) 
Also sounds like from that they are going to keep the old engine shop so i am curious of your opinions on it. 
 
I would say my next hope is the PW4068, CFM56-5A and V2500s coming in house. I would love to see the MSP engine shop doing something more than just V2500 QEC and 2037 hospital visits. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

thank you, sir. I will put that on my to do list.


it appears that DL is showing more and more interest in MSP maintenance as well.

 

[topDawg]

thank you, sir. I will put that on my to do list.


it appears that DL is showing more and more interest in MSP maintenance as well.

Its smart. ATL has little to no room because of all the Delta work and MSP has plenty. MSP even has a few bays that Delta gave up that is still part of the hangar so in theory Delta could expand a few bays if needed without having do build anything and it would be attached to the existing base. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

just read what you suggested.

I have always thought DL Tech Ops was the best in the business and the stats that were provided simply confirm that.

You guys are the best at what you do.

I am very excited about the future of your dept. and you were right about your guesses about what would take place with RR.

it is also worth having a look at the IFS page and the "rumor has it" to see some interesting things that affect the company as a whole including some of the comments you made about LAX.

I see that Tech Ops will lay claim to a "largest in the world" title regarding one aspect of what they have/do.

 

[topDawg]

just read what you suggested.

I have always thought DL Tech Ops was the best in the business and the stats that were provided simply confirm that.

You guys are the best at what you do.

I told you, the numbers we are putting out are awesome. Industry leading TAT and TBOs, and only getting better. 
 

I am very excited about the future of your dept. and you were right about your guesses about what would take place with RR.

yeah 3 new engines is a good deal. 
Really hope Delta does take some 787s so we can add a fourth. 
 

it is also worth having a look at the IFS page and the "rumor has it" to see some interesting things that affect the company as a whole including some of the comments you made about LAX.

I believe meto posted basically exactly what was said there. I know the AA fanboys think Delta is locked out and LAWA wont be working with them but it simply isn't true. 
 

I see that Tech Ops will lay claim to a "largest in the world" title regarding one aspect of what they have/do.

by .2 meters. I like it. Basically doing it just to do it.  

 

[WorldTraveler]

yeah, DL isn't into spending a little dough to be best in the world.

honestly, tell me what made a difference in why things are coming back?

and do you honestly think there are mainframe opportunities that will be coming back that have been left on the table by others?

and it is most interesting to note the divergence in the industry again... Parker is doing what I expected him to do and DL Tech Ops is looking to clean up.

I AM proud of what you do professionally even if we don't agree on labor related issues. and that goes for Kev do.

I know you two are highly competent employees and I hope you don't ever forget that.

and my conviction that DL is not going to give an inch to AA on the west coast and will in fact take a foot is stronger than ever.

 

[topDawg]

yeah, DL isn't into spending a little dough to be best in the world.

I said this on the AA thread about Tulsa, i find it interesting that Delta is footing the bill here where as AA is looking for Tulsa to do it.  
 

honestly, tell me what made a difference in why things are coming back?

Well its a few things 
1) as i told you before, TechOps was in a spot where it has to grow, or die. The bulk of the engine line up, for example, are dying engines. 2037s are going away. 219s are going away. 4062s are going away...... etc. etc. Only the CFM56 line really looks like it could live on for more than 15 to 20 years. So they had to make a move and I honestly believe if John or Tony were still around, at best, this work would be going to Mexico. So again big, big, big shout out to Don and his team. 
2) Those numbers. TechOps reliablity and the numbers they are driving for the MRO and for Delta make it basically impossible with other MROs to compete with Delta's work. So while it might be a little cheaper to send the work to a vendor, you lose money on the TATs. On the TBOs. Also on the MRO side that is lost chances for revenue 
3) Labor costs around the world are going up. Slowly but surely. As i have told you before the margins on the outsourced work are getting smaller and smaller and smaller. So what we are seeing now is some vendor shifting to try and find better margins, but that train is going to run out. Airlines like Delta, who have the infistructure already mostly in place is going to slowly start bring things in-house. An airline like jetBlue or Southwest probably wont go down this road simply because of the large costs it would take to build the MX bases to support themselves. 
4) Supply chain costs and ferry costs are eating into already thin margins. That is why we are seeing a stop put on moving all of Delta's HMVs to the TechOps Mexico. It was stupid to build the building at an airport Delta doesn't even fly too. I have heard through the grape vine Delta is not happy with it at all, big reason is supply chain costs and ferry costs. 
5) in the US the lack of AMTs is real, so just like we are seeing at the RJ level for pilots we are starting to see that at the MRO vendors. So they are having to increase labor costs to get workers. Why do it at AAR when you can pay the same and do it in-house? 
 
I think, as long as we(labor) don't screw it up like some want too, it is a good chance for us to start getting back to some pre-BK levels. AA's and UA's have to lead the way here, Delta will follow if they do. (and I heard from the United VP of TechOps not to long ago that they are looking at growing what they do in-house. I have heard CFM56-5B/7s, V2500s and GEnX are all being looked at to be added in-house.) 
 
Also it is important to note, none of the three engines being put in-house were presously outsourced. The Airbus work coming in-house is work NW sent out. Delta isn't really bringing anything Delta sent out back in, yet. Hopefully some of the other engines I have talked about will. I see a great opertunity with the V2500 if Delta wants to go down that road. 
 
 

and do you honestly think there are mainframe opportunities that will be coming back that have been left on the table by others?

V2500 is the biggest one. In the US alone the US3 operate large fleets of V2500s powered aircraft. Like the CFM56 Delta can bring in the MD90 engine (D5) can be run on the same "line" as the A5(32S engine) so Delta would have 120 in-house engines (more than enough for a line) and also be able to capitalize on all the A5 engines in the US.
 
Airbus components are something Delta needs to do more of. I would like to see A32S landing gear, T/Rs and APUs come in-house. Same for the 330. Again so little of that in the US that has to be sent out of the country.  
 
I also, as i said, hope that Delta operates the 787 because I believe the MRO possibilities there are huge.
 
finally i think i would look at doing like they did with the CF34 but doing so on the component side. I think the market place is there for some CRJ/ERJ components.   
 

 

and it is most interesting to note the divergence in the industry again... Parker is doing what I expected him to do and DL Tech Ops is looking to clean up.

Actually I don't think this is the case. It does sound like AA is at least looking at bringing some of the work on the new airplanes in-house. They do not have any service agreements that I know of signed on the GE90, GEnX and V2500s. They wouldn't be upgrading the test cell for anything other than, at least the GEnX. 
 
TAESL is a a sinking ship, but that is due to AA going GEnX on the 787. RR isn't going to add an engine to TAESL if AA doesn't have it in the fleet because they don't have fall back volume. That makes it hard to staff because the flow of work is going to be up and down. The only engine that would have, IMO, been an option was the Trent XWB, and that i would be came down to numbers (Delta has more) and US signed on to those engines/airplanes because the merger 
 
I personally believe AA maintenance will be insourcing quite a few things, United too. JMO though. 
 

 

[WorldTraveler]

good perspectives but the difference between DL and both AA and UA is that DL is willing to hold onto an older fleet which does need more maintenance and at use that work inhouse. It might be true that AA and UA insource and the US legacies become the MROs of choice over others but there is no evidence so far that is happening.

and you are absolutely right that DL is moving rapidly to snap up qualified pilots and is ready to do the same with mechanics because there simply won't be enough to support the needs of the industry including the ME3 and other airlines in East Asia.

As for Airbus capabilities, I have a feeling that DL made it clear as part of the 50 widebody aircraft order that it wanted to increase its MRO capabilities and would use whatever deal to help do that - but also wanted Airbus' help with existing aircraft; I wouldn't be surprised if that is why the 332s got increased TOWs and the 320s got a life extension.

and DL gains a lot more inhouse capabilities and the ability to do more of its own work inhouse

and your point about labor costs going up in other parts of the world means that DL really does have the ability to serve markets with its own aircraft but do work on a competitive basis with other MROs.

the key bottom line in your post and what is happening in Tech Ops is that DL is once again leading the industry in strategically thinking forward and adapting the business to it.

whether the issue is network, fuel, or fleet, DL has been consistently one stop ahead of other US airlines and that first mover advantage has absolutely benefitted DL employees.


hats off and keep the good news coming.