Firearm discharges on US Airways flight

[jimntx]

Pilot or FAM: zero excuse for this one. If it's the FAM, they need to be removed from the force.

Can't possible have been a FAM. FAMs are not FFDOs. Remember it stands for Federal Flight Deck Officer. Only the Captain and the FO are Flight Deck officers. FAMs are not to be designated as anything other than a passenger. (Of course, the fact that they like to board 10 minutes ahead of everyone else gives them away to most passengers. )

 

[oldiebutgoody]

The correct term is "negligent discharge." They don't discharge by themselves. I believe if it was the FFDO, they had either a Glock or an HK USP. I own both, and they do not fire under any circumstances unless the trigger is pulled and (depending upon how the HK is configured for safetys) the safety is off. It simply cannot happen "accidentally." Both have potential failure modes on the second/subsequent shots, but you do not get the fiream to go "Bang!" in either case without physically pulling the trigger.

Pilot or FAM: zero excuse for this one. If it's the FAM, they need to be removed from the force. If it's the pilot, they need to be removed from the FFDO program ASAP. Zero excuses. Proper firearm handling is a life and death exercise and should not be entrusted to anyone who has so much as a tiny screwup, much less a negligent discharge.

I would wait for the investigation before jumping to conclusions. I have heard of holstering issues which do carry potential discharge problems. From what I've heard, this complaint would not be new. By the way, most Law Enforcement firearms do not have safeties, but are configured for DAO, double-action-only, meaning that only a long trigger pull is required for discharge. Glocks, which I believe are not used Federally (I could be wrong, but my friends in law enforcement tell me) have a double trigger arrangement, but many forces have stopped using them due to the potential for accidental discharge. I would NEVER jump to a conclusion such as yours without an investigation. It's fruitless and does NOTHING to fix the problem.

 

[ClueByFour]

Can't possible have been a FAM. FAMs are not FFDOs. Remember it stands for Federal Flight Deck Officer. Only the Captain and the FO are Flight Deck officers. FAMs are not to be designated as anything other than a passenger. (Of course, the fact that they like to board 10 minutes ahead of everyone else gives them away to most passengers. )

I am aware of the difference. My supposition is that the early reporting seems a bit sketchy to be sure whether it was actually a FAM or an FFDO.

I would wait for the investigation before jumping to conclusions. I have heard of holstering issues which do carry potential discharge problems. From what I've heard, this complaint would not be new.

If there is a negligent discharge while holstering, it's negligent. That's an operator issue. It has nothing to do with the firearm.

I have carried both of these weapons for longer than the FFDO program has been around and I've yet to have a negligent discharge while holstering. Nobody with a modicum of regular training should ever have a problem with either of these firearms in that regard. The "issues" you have "heard" of are operator error.

If the complaint is not new, it's unique to the FFDO program--everyone else who is trained by the feds (at FLETC, Quantico, or anyone else) considers a "holstering issue" to be a negligent discharge.

If you can't holster either of those pistols without a negligent discharge, you should not be an FFDO, and I personally question one's coordination abilities to the point where I would not want to be a pax behind them.

By the way, most Law Enforcement firearms do not have safeties, but are configured for DAO, double-action-only, meaning that only a long trigger pull is required for discharge.

They don't have external safeties. They most definitely have drop-safeties. The HK USP is available in no less tha 8 different models of operation, more if you count the LEM modification.

But you do bring up an interesting point: do you know how incredibly difficult it is to negligently discharge a DAO or DAK (if it's SIGlike, which the LEM modification to the USP is) holstering it? Any negligent discharge requires that you pull the trigger, doing it with a DAO or LEM USP requires a brain fart of absolutely epic magnitude or a real desire to attempt to put a hole in one's foot. Or the cockpit floor, as it were.

Glocks, which I believe are not used Federally (I could be wrong, but my friends in law enforcement tell me)

You are wrong. The FBI has been issuing G22 and either the G23 or 27 for years. CBP is phasing them out--they are in on the large HK buy the feds just made. US Marshalls carry (IIRC) the G22 (it's one of the .40s).

I believe the very first FFDOs trained with and were briefly issued Glocks.

have a double trigger arrangement, but many forces have stopped using them due to the potential for accidental discharge.

They don't have a "double trigger" arrangement. They have a trigger safety. Among other things, it's in the center of the trigger. A glock trigger needs to be pressed deliberately in the center to fire. Snag a side and pull it, and it won't pull (you can actually tug on the side of the trigger as hard as you want without depressing the trigger safety, and it won't fire). It has a firing pin safety and a drop safety. It has no external safety lever.

Any force who stopped using a glock did not do so due to the chance of an "Accidental" discharge. There is no such a beast. There are negligent discharges, caused by improper use of the firearm. It does not fire (the first time, anyway) without a firm press on the center of the trigger.

There are agencies who are worried about the "Kaboom!" problem with .40 caliber glocks. That still requires a trigger pull. Even if the firearm in question was a glock and even if it did "Kaboom!" (google it), it still required that the trigger be deliberately pulled.

I would NEVER jump to a conclusion such as yours without an investigation. It's fruitless and does NOTHING to fix the problem.

I would, because I know and understand how both the HK USP and all Glocks work. Any single-round discharge is either intentional or negligent. It will be found as such in this case.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

I am aware of the difference. My supposition is that the early reporting seems a bit sketchy to be sure whether it was actually a FAM or an FFDO.....

MOD NOTE: Do NOT quote entire lengthy posts when responding to one or two sentences, and ESPECIALLY when the post you are quoting is DIRECTLY above your post. Quote Edited for length.


I've been shooting both for years, as well. I have never had an accidental discharge, but I WOULD NEVER place blame on ANYONE without an investigation. I have MANY friends in Law Enforcement, and have had this discussion about Glocks several times. I assure you, you are quite wrong in the reason many departments are switching way from them. I'd give you my contact in the local PD, but he'd just laugh at you. The local counties and city switched to SIGSAUERs. I own a USP Compact LEM, and it has NO SAFETY WHATSOEVER, except for DAO.
I KNOW that FFDOs are WELL TRAINED, so any sort of accidental discharge was just that, an ACCIDENT. If it is something procedurally wrong, then it needs fixed to prevent another occurrance. I hope for your sake that if you ever have any sort of accident that people in charge are less biased than you are.
I am not an FFDO, and never experienced their training but I appreciate their service in making the industry safer. They are truly the last line of defense between a safe flight and another 9/11.

 

[wopr21]

I couldn't agree more. Get these things off the airplanes NOW!!!

Not until the terrorists get off first...

 

[Dog Wonder]

Guns are for cowards, not for protection.

More guns, more criminals.

 

[maddawg]

bigbusboy didn't you apply for the FFDO program and was turned down?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Guns are for cowards, not for protection.

More guns, more criminals.

So, Police, the military, FAMS, are cowards.. You tell 'em. Don't worry, they'll just laugh while protecting your sorry backside from those that would do you harm.

I STRONGLY disagree with you. I'm responsible to protect myself and my family, no one else is. If it takes a firearm to do it, then so be it. With proper training, they're much safer than you think.

 

[ClueByFour]

I've been shooting both for years, as well. I have never had an accidental discharge, but I WOULD NEVER place blame on ANYONE without an investigation. I have MANY friends in Law Enforcement, and have had this discussion about Glocks several times. I assure you, you are quite wrong in the reason many departments are switching way from them. I'd give you my contact in the local PD, but he'd just laugh at you. The local counties and city switched to SIGSAUERs. I own a USP Compact LEM, and it has NO SAFETY WHATSOEVER, except for DAO.

You can discuss whatever you like. A glock won't discharge unless you pull the trigger. Full stop.

If you discharge any USP holstering the firearm, it's negligent. Full stop.

Want to know why your contact in your local PD would really say his/her department might be afraid of a glock? For the same reason some FFDO probably put one into the floor: local cops and FFDOs are exactly the type who qualify and then don't ever actually shoot the firearm until it's time to requalify. They care more about the badge than the tools. And Glocks will bite those who can't or won't learn the simple rule (#3): KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET.

I KNOW that FFDOs are WELL TRAINED, so any sort of accidental discharge was just that, an ACCIDENT.

And I know that there is no such beast with either of the possible firearms. There are negligent discharges. Not accidental.

The fact that you cannot or will not understand or acknowledge the difference is telling. Ask the United States Army, the United States Marine Corps, or the US Navy what they consider a "negligent discharge"--they all assume any unplanned discharge is negligent, because a trained individual should be in positive control at all times.

Since you own a USP and are familiar with it's workings, please tell me how one would have an "accidental" discharge, without having one's finger (or another item) having pulled the trigger?

If it is something procedurally wrong, then it needs fixed to prevent another occurrance. I hope for your sake that if you ever have any sort of accident that people in charge are less biased than you are.

If I ever have a negligent discharge, I deserve all the scrutiny that comes my way. I go out of my way to avoid it.

I am not an FFDO, and never experienced their training but I appreciate their service in making the industry safer. They are truly the last line of defense between a safe flight and another 9/11.

Let's think about that for a second: they've never saved anyone, and (I'd wager) just blew their first hole in something not designed nor expecting one. Great track record if it turns out to be a negligent discharge. Which is highly likely.

 

[Richard]

Keep this discussion about the incident at hand. If you want to debate firearms law and policy, do so in another thread, and in the Water Cooler area.

 

[EastUS]

You can discuss whatever you like. A glock won't discharge unless you pull the trigger. Full stop.

If you discharge any USP holstering the firearm, it's negligent. Full stop.

While noting that you're unquestionably the finest expert on firearms on this forum....just a moment's pause sir:

(swings leg off horse by saloon doors...puffs chest out, adjusts hat and swaggers in) "We-yall Pilgirm..I got no doubt but what you're a dang seriously deadly gunfighter Suh...In mah' time...Ah've bin' trusted by this very same Guv-mint with a whole lotta' dang dangerous flying or personal weapons, even potentially mushroom-makers, and one thang I've noticed 'bout man's arsenal, and ANy of his dang deee-vices, is that ANY dang machine jess' ain't perfect, and firearms ain't neither. Any man what ever thinks so's a pure fool. Pins shear, springs compress, twist and fail, damaging impact's happen, manufacturing issues occur, and there jess' ain't NO perfect world to be found eenywhere's"

How about we all farily wait for any/all actual details to come forth.

As for the poster braying: "guns are for cowards"???...Freakin' spare us all such insane, and absurdly childish gibberish. Having some?ANY fantasy that "righteously" cowering behind someone holding the gun FOR you is "OK" is truly for cowards.

 

[cltrat]

my understanding is the feds were there waiting to get the cockpit recorders

 

[fr8tmastr]

Clue,
I agree about the negligent discharge, I am sure barring any really strange events, that will be the report. However, there may be other factors. One thing for sure is the pilot in question is going to be carpet dancing for a while

 

[YVINTERN]

Does anyone know yet where the discharge went into...the avionics or a window or the floor...

 

[yoyodyne]

(swings leg off horse by saloon doors...puffs chest out, adjusts hat and swaggers in) "We-yall Pilgirm..I got no doubt but what you're a dang seriously deadly gunfighter Suh...In mah' time...Ah've bin' trusted by this very same Guv-mint with a whole lotta' dang dangerous flying or personal weapons, even potentially mushroom-makers, and one thang I've noticed 'bout man's arsenal, and ANy of his dang deee-vices, is that ANY dang machine jess' ain't perfect, and firearms ain't neither. Any man what ever thinks so's a pure fool. Pins shear, springs compress, twist and fail, damaging impact's happen, manufacturing issues occur, and there jess' ain't NO perfect world to be found eenywhere's"

Perfect example of why Naval Aviators wear Brown shoes!