Move2CLT
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No pilots are telling FAs anything. They're telling us.
F/A agreement, list the concessions
- Thread starter galley princess
- Start date
SparrowHawk
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You are surprised by this? Most humans will act in their own best interest. Pilots are mostly human.
If you don't read your proposed CBA and understand the ramifications then don't B*tch.
First thing I will Say... you must go to the road shows...
They address the Co Pay rates...
Co has no duty rigs... no min days... and not many provisions in their
contract to protect those who get rescheduled... they also have longer work days..
lest rest on overnites... etc... if you attend a roadshow you will learn the differences in the
contracts out there...
IMHO
Go to a Road show get your questions answered and then make your informed decision with your
vote... either YES or NO...
but don't cast your ballot based on what "he said" "she said" hear it from the horse's mouth..
Go to the Road shows.. they are having them in many locations to get the info out there..
Iclubbabyseals
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Okay, Mr. management.
Why is PBS going to take "18 to 24 months" to implement something that has already been implemented? and, the FAs are supposed to sign on a blank check, with no vendor named?
Is it because a division or subsidiary of tempe is to be named the "vendor" and another version of that unusable bull fertilizer named "QIK" to be used? Mr. Parker must really hate the operations people at US. Perhaps, the employees should hate the "serial drunk" back? Other than, among other things, losing half a billion in unrestricted cash, what else has he contributed to the operation? Can one say, nothing?
Iclubbabyseals
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Glucose Intolerant
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I totally agree.
Then after attending a Road Show - get out your calculator and simply do the math on what has been proposed. Much like mathematics - can't refute logic.
Agreed with Glucose... do the math Read everything... attend the road shows... do not listen to rumors... as I am still seeing here...
Those who spout off at the mouth are not really truly informed... Please visit the afa website and download the current t/a ...
do not put your spin on what you think its says.. go to a road show and if you have a question about what you think it says..ask...
Onestep2flt
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While I will agree with everything you say, there is an important distinction between spin and opinion. I think as long as you can see the difference in the two that they can be used in a useful manner to help in your decision. There is no perfect contract. There are going to be differences in what makes a good contract for you than for others. For instance, you may be senior enough that as long as you get a pay raise that will get you by until you can retire in a few years. That means the reserve system does not matter so much to you. If you are junior enough to be a reserve, the pay rates might be nice but not nearly as important as the reserve section. If we can share our opinions on these matters without the spin and the rumor it could be an important factor in making an educated decision. Now, having said that I would submit that some of the biggest spin heard came from the negotiating committee. The bullet point highlights that you received is a very good example. It does contain some things that truly are improvements. That is great! It does not however tell the whole complete picture. I think you should be giving a complete picture of the contract. If it is something negative you need that info to decide whether the good outweigh the bad. It is my opinion that when the bad was called out that the spin machine went into full swing. In a perfect world your leaders would be able to look you in the eyes and say look, this section or this section could be bad for you because of this. This section is good because it outweighs any bad and so on. This will never happen. They will sit on their hands until you ask the questions. Even then their job is to sell it to you. That I am afraid is the ultimate in spin. We all have our own bias as it relates to work rules, pay or whatever. This will never change. What you have is each others opinions to help you sort through the fog of politics.
I think there are some strong opinions on here. I also believe there are some who made up their mind a long time ago how they would vote. You can't change that. All you can do is the same thing you have to do with your leaders. If they tell you something that doesn't smell right in regard to this agreement have them site the section and read it for yourself. I think if you can come back on here and either verify or debunk what is said that is certainly not spinning anything. Of course we can all interpret what is said differently as well so it can make for good debate. Even if you do not solve it here it at least got you to read it for yourself and to think about it.
Maybe what should be done here is to format exactly how galley princess did in the beginning. Name the things you see (good or bad) but site the section you got it from. If it is something said at a roadshow then state who said it. That should be able to be verified by the minutes from the meeting if they were indeed taken. Barring that, e-mail them and ask them to verify what they said and what section they are getting it from.
Hopefully everyone is big enough to try to separate fact from fiction. I think it would be a shame not to share info here that might be helpful to understanding each others needs. Just my opinion!
The FA's on the west are smart enough to see that the company putting money in their left hand and taking it from their right hand. It's not their first rodeo and they know what the ramifications are when they vote. Your attempt to scare FA's into voting for a substandard contract stinks of desperation and I hope people see that for what it is.
Phoenix
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The FAs on the East seem motivated to study the actual TA for themselves rather than rely on summaries. Of the many that have already read it, I haven't heard one that is in favor of it.
I overheard one FA on the hotel bus trying to persuade the others to vote in favor of it, but she didn't get too far when it became apparent they had read it and she hadn't.
Good luck.
galley princess
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quote name='Phoenix' timestamp='1329684861' post='873483']
The FAs on the East seem motivated to study the actual TA for themselves rather than rely on summaries. Of the many that have already read it, I haven't heard one that is in favor of it.
I overheard one FA on the hotel bus trying to persuade the others to vote in favor of it, but she didn't get too far when it became apparent they had read it and she hadn't.
Good luck.
[/quote]
I have popped in reading the various posts on this thread, but I really didn't have anything to add. As I previously stated, it's all well and good to attend the roadshows and hear the hard sell, but for me it's about three o'clock in the morning.
You know, when it's you and scheduling and you're being threatened into doing whatever nasty thing they want you to do, despite the fact that you're illegal, exhausted or just plain screwed? "Grieve it" is the usual response. Then you find out that the union won't grieve or even fight it.
The written document. That's it. That's all you've got, and usually it's not enough. Whatever the explanation is, it does not change the document, and despite the general opinon of F/As that many of US execs hold, I can read.
I cited SWA and Continental because they are part of the industry, and they are relevant. SWA I think everyone realized we wouldn't match. Continental is relevant because most likely Continental F/As aren't going to allow a decrease in pay, more likely they'll negotiate status quo + United work rules. That is not farfetched and given the tentative that UA is entertaining, which, by the way is more favorable than ours, and add another contract within four years, and they really embody industry standard.
I think it is relevant that they will get raises annually, and start with a 5K signing bonus.
Meanwhile, ours is five years, which usually translates to six, and you get three raises. Are there some good things in our TA?Absolutely. Not enough to wash away the concessions and mask that it is at BEST cost neutral and at worst we lost more than we gained.
Throw all of the UA comparisons away, and you still have a US tentative agreement with huge concessions and very little gain.
This forum is dominated by pilots, and probably lurked by some F/As, I don't know how many F/As really do read it anymore. I do know that posts that lobby hard one way or another should be suspect, and that includes me. Ask yourself why posters are posting.
I will tell you why I am posting. I am intensely infuriated by the insult that this TA poses to my intelligence. I refuse to let it go unchallenged. Having said that, I recognize that my situation is not everyone elses and everyone has to vote in their own best interests, which could mean that this is what you want.
Just consider doing the math. For your own edification. Know what you're voting for / against.
I would also argue that if you vote for something because you're afraid you'll have to wait or not get anything better, then negotiating five years from now will probably be a formality. If the company thinks they can get you to accept anything because it is better than waiting, then it's over before it begins.
The FAs on the East seem motivated to study the actual TA for themselves rather than rely on summaries. Of the many that have already read it, I haven't heard one that is in favor of it.
I overheard one FA on the hotel bus trying to persuade the others to vote in favor of it, but she didn't get too far when it became apparent they had read it and she hadn't.
Good luck.
[/quote]
I have popped in reading the various posts on this thread, but I really didn't have anything to add. As I previously stated, it's all well and good to attend the roadshows and hear the hard sell, but for me it's about three o'clock in the morning.
You know, when it's you and scheduling and you're being threatened into doing whatever nasty thing they want you to do, despite the fact that you're illegal, exhausted or just plain screwed? "Grieve it" is the usual response. Then you find out that the union won't grieve or even fight it.
The written document. That's it. That's all you've got, and usually it's not enough. Whatever the explanation is, it does not change the document, and despite the general opinon of F/As that many of US execs hold, I can read.
I cited SWA and Continental because they are part of the industry, and they are relevant. SWA I think everyone realized we wouldn't match. Continental is relevant because most likely Continental F/As aren't going to allow a decrease in pay, more likely they'll negotiate status quo + United work rules. That is not farfetched and given the tentative that UA is entertaining, which, by the way is more favorable than ours, and add another contract within four years, and they really embody industry standard.
I think it is relevant that they will get raises annually, and start with a 5K signing bonus.
Meanwhile, ours is five years, which usually translates to six, and you get three raises. Are there some good things in our TA?Absolutely. Not enough to wash away the concessions and mask that it is at BEST cost neutral and at worst we lost more than we gained.
Throw all of the UA comparisons away, and you still have a US tentative agreement with huge concessions and very little gain.
This forum is dominated by pilots, and probably lurked by some F/As, I don't know how many F/As really do read it anymore. I do know that posts that lobby hard one way or another should be suspect, and that includes me. Ask yourself why posters are posting.
I will tell you why I am posting. I am intensely infuriated by the insult that this TA poses to my intelligence. I refuse to let it go unchallenged. Having said that, I recognize that my situation is not everyone elses and everyone has to vote in their own best interests, which could mean that this is what you want.
Just consider doing the math. For your own edification. Know what you're voting for / against.
I would also argue that if you vote for something because you're afraid you'll have to wait or not get anything better, then negotiating five years from now will probably be a formality. If the company thinks they can get you to accept anything because it is better than waiting, then it's over before it begins.
Iclubbabyseals
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Look at any contract with which Parker has a hand and you will find they take from five to seven years to complete. Add that to the five (maybe four) year tentative and you basically have a twelve year contract with no raises the last seven years. ipso facto. The ugliness speaks for itself.
Iclubbabyseals
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Nothing humble about your position. Carer to apply for CEO?
