Egypt Looking for Change?
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KCFlyer
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So let's say Kerry was in a suit and tie, sitting at his desk on a holiday and got the call....a coup is going on in Egypt. What should he do? Apparently the answer is dire enough to keep him off a boat - what does he do?
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Ms Tree
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KC,. all due respect but what he could have or should have done is not the issue. The issue is the fact that instead of saying that Kerry was on a boat, in full communication with the WH and his staff and there was nothing that Kerry could have done to prevent or act on they lied and said he was not on the boat only to come out a day later and say he was on the boat.
Why lie in the first place. If it was to save face it is stupid because the after math of a lie is probably always worse than telling the truth.
Had Bush admitted that the WMD was bad info, that the war was carried out with a bad plan, it wold have still been bad but not as bad as the blow back he experienced by lying to cover up the incompetence.
Had Clinton told the media and Congress to pound sand and that he was not going to answer any questions about his private life nothing would have happened. But the idiot lied and said he did not mess around with Lewinsky.
They never ever learn.
Why lie in the first place. If it was to save face it is stupid because the after math of a lie is probably always worse than telling the truth.
Had Bush admitted that the WMD was bad info, that the war was carried out with a bad plan, it wold have still been bad but not as bad as the blow back he experienced by lying to cover up the incompetence.
Had Clinton told the media and Congress to pound sand and that he was not going to answer any questions about his private life nothing would have happened. But the idiot lied and said he did not mess around with Lewinsky.
They never ever learn.
Keroseneuser
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Holy Cow! We agree on something! Politicians in general seem to act like 5 year olds when confronted with their actions and lie's. "Wasn't me I didn't do it....It was Billy down the street's fault" Some more than others. The current administration seems to have it down to an art. If the federal govt. was a normal corporation the executive, senate and house branches of govt. would all be fired for being inept and corrupt.
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Ms Tree
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I think the other other part of the problem is that 1. most people have no idea how government works and 2. we do not accept that fact that people, despite their best intentions make mistakes.
Had Obama/Kerry come out and admitted that Kerry was on a boat, the talking heads would have ranted about why he was not at the helm pf the ship when this coup/or what ever it is, took place. Never mind the fact that Egypt is a sovereign country and there is not a dam thing we can or should do about it. Never mind the fact that the POTUS, SecDef and other cabinet members are accompanied by an entourage that allow them to be in contact with whom ever they need on a secure line.
Secondly, sh1t happens. Should Reagan have have dealt with the Mujahidin fighters in Afghanistan differently as to not piss off OBL and help create the Taliban? Yea but who would have thought it would come to this?
Should Clinton have gone after OBL harder? Hindsight would seem to indicate yes but who the hell knew or had any idea that he was concocting a plan to turn 4 commercial aircraft into guided missiles?
Should Bush have looked into OBL a little harder like the Clinton administration suggested? Again, hindsight would seem to indicate that he should have.
Mistakes happen and sometimes the consequences are horrible. How ever I do not believe for one instance that Reagan, Clinton or Bush did not do what they felt was right or what they could do given the political climate and the nature of US politics. I may not agree with what they did or said but I do not believe their intent was malicious.
I do believe that Bush was callous and reckless but that is a different issue.
Point being is we will not accept a POTUS going on the air ans saying "I screwed up. Not my intent but the info I had said this was the right course of action. We will try and do better the next time". He might as well just fall on a sword and call it a day.
Had Obama/Kerry come out and admitted that Kerry was on a boat, the talking heads would have ranted about why he was not at the helm pf the ship when this coup/or what ever it is, took place. Never mind the fact that Egypt is a sovereign country and there is not a dam thing we can or should do about it. Never mind the fact that the POTUS, SecDef and other cabinet members are accompanied by an entourage that allow them to be in contact with whom ever they need on a secure line.
Secondly, sh1t happens. Should Reagan have have dealt with the Mujahidin fighters in Afghanistan differently as to not piss off OBL and help create the Taliban? Yea but who would have thought it would come to this?
Should Clinton have gone after OBL harder? Hindsight would seem to indicate yes but who the hell knew or had any idea that he was concocting a plan to turn 4 commercial aircraft into guided missiles?
Should Bush have looked into OBL a little harder like the Clinton administration suggested? Again, hindsight would seem to indicate that he should have.
Mistakes happen and sometimes the consequences are horrible. How ever I do not believe for one instance that Reagan, Clinton or Bush did not do what they felt was right or what they could do given the political climate and the nature of US politics. I may not agree with what they did or said but I do not believe their intent was malicious.
I do believe that Bush was callous and reckless but that is a different issue.
Point being is we will not accept a POTUS going on the air ans saying "I screwed up. Not my intent but the info I had said this was the right course of action. We will try and do better the next time". He might as well just fall on a sword and call it a day.
KCFlyer
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Which is why the whole thing is a moot point. I dont' care if they lied, because as you said, if they said "he's on a boat", the same people who defend Bush clearing brush 80 times during his term in office will be quick to accuse Kerry of slacking on the job. I mean, even when Bush wasn't clearing brush, he was riding a mountain bike or falling off a Segway. But he wasn't slacking at all...why the hotline was right there in the den, and Laura would have rung the "red alert triangle" had anything bad happened over in Iraq.
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Ms Tree
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KC,
I agree that the issue of where Kerry is moot. It does not matter where he is because he is always in touch. The point is they lied about where he was because they thought it would not seem appropriate. They knew that most people are idiots and and would believe FOX when they said that Kerry was dicking around on his boat instead of being Sec of State. So they lied. Instead of explaining to the people where he was and that it did not matter.
The point is they lied. Does not matter what they lied about, the point is they lied. This did not have anything to do with national security. It was CYA all the way.
I agree that the issue of where Kerry is moot. It does not matter where he is because he is always in touch. The point is they lied about where he was because they thought it would not seem appropriate. They knew that most people are idiots and and would believe FOX when they said that Kerry was dicking around on his boat instead of being Sec of State. So they lied. Instead of explaining to the people where he was and that it did not matter.
The point is they lied. Does not matter what they lied about, the point is they lied. This did not have anything to do with national security. It was CYA all the way.
KCFlyer
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We've grown accustomed to lying every since Jimmy Carter left office. He was the only president that didn't lie to us, and he was the only president to shoulder the blame for his failures (Iran rescue anyone? The man was 8,000 miles away but took ulitimate responsibility for that. Reagan was amiable and gave us the "I don't recall" lie on Iran Contra. HW lied with his "no new taxes" pledge, although to his credit, breaking that pledge was in the best interest of the country. Bill Clinton lied about a blowjob. W lied about WMD's. And so we've grown accustomed to the lies, except the right gives Reagan a pass because, gosh darn it, he was just a saint in every other respect.
Knotbuyinit
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Does 1.3 billion dollars in military aid ring a bell? Does the US support a military coup of any sovereign country? Aren't you in the least bit concern as to where our money is going and the reason? It's not what Kerry was doing, it was what Kerry wasn't doing. And the lie, like a small child who doesn't foresee the naturally foreseeable consequences of their actions, it's like that.
KCFlyer
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Hey knot, I think we should pull all our money out of the middle east, including money to Israel. What did you want Kerry to do....go in and help democratically elected Muslim Brotherhood, or help the rebels, most of whom also hate us? It's easy to #### - if Kerry weren't on a boat and sitting by his desk when the phone rang - what should he have done. You're awfully critical of him here - so this should be an easy answer....what should he have done that would make you say "good job"?
You want me to post again Bush taking complete responsibility for his failures?
Knotbuyinit
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What was the point of State lying about Kerry's whereabouts and how could my statements even remotely be defined as "awfully critical"? Exit question; who lit the fuse on your tampon?
