Doubts Grow About Carty

[FrugalFlyer]

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On 4/20/2003 716 PM joejett wrote:
Something also hit me!!! I know Carty is Canadian,But is he FRENCH/ Canadian That whould explain alot
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Knock it off with the anti-Canadian rhetoric, eh.
IMHO, those who keep on bringing his nationality up are either ignorant or racits or both.

 

[Imagolfer]

You have to consider the source of these posts. I would have to question the education level of some here. People are thinking with their emotions, and no logic in most cases

 

[WXGuesser]

AAOutsider:

I have to applaud you for stating the clearest observation of the truth of AA''s situation I have seen on these boards in a long time. Unfortunately, I think you will have very little impact on what passes for minds on *some* of the people around here. They cannot see the world past the end of their nose and never will, no matter how much logic you present to them.

I don''t know if anyone has noticed this or pointed it out yet, but I will. If you look at the breakdown of which groups voted how on the concessionary contract, those groups who perform jobs that are primarily mental labor for the airline (pilots, dispatchers, etc.) approved the contract overwhelmingly. Those who work in positions that are primarily physical labor (F/A''s, AMT''s, FSC''s, etc.) were split about 50-50. I just find that disparity exceedingly interesting.

(And, yes, I know how much training and mental acumen it takes to get an A&P certificate, or to be an F/A, and how much manual dexterity and coordination it takes to be a pilot, so kindly save your breath. I''m not trying to demean anyone.)

TANSTAAFL

 

[AAmech]

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On 4/21/2003 12:54:23 PM WXGuesser wrote:

AAOutsider:


I don''t know if anyone has noticed this or pointed it out yet, but I will. If you look at the breakdown of which groups voted how on the concessionary contract, those groups who perform jobs that are primarily mental labor for the airline (pilots, dispatchers, etc.) approved the contract overwhelmingly. Those who work in positions that are primarily physical labor (F/A''s, AMT''s, FSC''s, etc.) were split about 50-50. I just find that disparity exceedingly interesting.

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The pilots definitly have a better grasp about what is going on around here. The TWU and APFA should have spent a lot more time explaining how BK works and the ramifications of entering BK. I am STILL hearing co-workers talking about how much better it would be to go to BK court. They think that all we''d have to do was go in and just explain to the Judge how unfair the co.is and BINGO, we would get a much better deal. And lets not forget how the Judge would cut managements pay to punish them for screwing up. Its really scary how ignorant of the situation a large segment of my coworkers are.

 

[WXGuesser]

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On 4/21/2003 3:55:04 PM AAmech wrote:


The pilots definitly have a better grasp about what is going on around here. The TWU and APFA should have spent a lot more time explaining how BK works and the ramifications of entering BK. I am STILL hearing co-workers talking about how much better it would be to go to BK court. They think that all we''d have to do was go in and just explain to the Judge how unfair the co.is and BINGO, we would get a much better deal. And lets not forget how the Judge would cut managements pay to punish them for screwing up. Its really scary how ignorant of the situation a large segment of my coworkers are.

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AAmech:

I think the TWU did try to inform people (I can''t speak for the individual locals). There was a lot of information up on the ATD''s website about exactly what would happen in a bankruptcy scenario.

The problem was, there were a lot of people who were too busy getting all worked up to take a look at the facts of the situation. They would rather stand at the back of the crowd, incite their brethren to riot, and then slink off into the shadows and watch their fellow union members get slaughtered. They weren''t the people whose blood was going to be on the streets (by that I mean have their jobs cut, not their throats...)

Those people who took the time to THINK about what bankruptcy was going to do realized that it is by its very nature A Very Bad Thing and should be avoided...

TANSTAAFL

 

[joejett]

frualflyer (sorry but that opens up too much) if you read the post correctly I wasn''t bashing the Canadian,I was questioning his FRENCH side

 

[firstamendment]

AAObserver

Since you know so much about the industry, why do you think 45 managers deserve the pension plan they have been promised by Carty? These managers don''t OWN AMR, infact Carty doesn''t own AMR. The notion that somehow magaement deserves protections to keep those wonderful minds is the biggest bunch of crap I''ve heard and your article seems to support the notion.

If AMR were to go Chapter 7, which it won''t, or Chapter 11, which it may, it will be because of poor management and decision making AND by padding the wallets of upper management.

You see, AAobserver, this is the dirty little secret that is finally being exposed in the airline industry...Give you and yours big raises at the expense of labor and then blame labor for losing money. You see, blaming labor for all the airline industry''s problems is as tired as those who take their hate for the world out on the industry itself, inparticularly the unions.

If you are a true observer of AA or the airline industry as a whole, you will know what a joke it really is to reward these great management minds so we don''t lose them. Where the hell do you think they will go? I have heard the same BS at United and US Airways...Oh we can''t lost those great talents...all those talents that know nothing about the running of the airline industry, are unwilling to be innovative in any productive way, and only know how to blame labor for everything. Give me a break.

 

[AAObserver]

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On 4/21/2003 4:49:07 PM firstamendment wrote:

AAObserver

Since you know so much about the industry, why do you think 45 managers deserve the pension plan they have been promised by Carty? These managers don't OWN AMR, infact Carty doesn't own AMR. The notion that somehow magaement deserves protections to keep those wonderful minds is the biggest bunch of crap I've heard and your article seems to support the notion.

If AMR were to go Chapter 7, which it won't, or Chapter 11, which it may, it will be because of poor management and decision making AND by padding the wallets of upper management.

You see, AAobserver, this is the dirty little secret that is finally being exposed in the airline industry...Give you and yours big raises at the expense of labor and then blame labor for losing money. You see, blaming labor for all the airline industry's problems is as tired as those who take their hate for the world out on the industry itself, inparticularly the unions.

If you are a true observer of AA or the airline industry as a whole, you will know what a joke it really is to reward these great management minds so we don't lose them. Where the hell do you think they will go? I have heard the same BS at United and US Airways...Oh we can't lost those great talents...all those talents that know nothing about the running of the airline industry, are unwilling to be innovative in any productive way, and only know how to blame labor for everything. Give me a break.

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I don't pretend to know everything about the airline industry. I do, however, know about business in this country.

The pension plan is not something they were promised by Carty. It was something they were offered by board after 9/11 in an effort to help keep them from leaving, and all it does is hold money these execs have already earned as deferred pay for tax reasons. AA certainly isn't the only company that does this, and it is not something that is overly extravagant. The pension setup protects a portion of these deferred earnings in the event of bankruptcy.

What so many of you fail to realize is that a struggling company like needs to offer retention bonuses in order to keep all it's management for leaving. Most Fortune 500 companies have the same types of bonuses for their execs. Delta has them. So does IBM. Without them, AA will never attract quality executive leadership, nor will it even keep what it has. Why the union employees think AA should pay significantly under-market for it's executive team is beyond me. Maybe you don't like Carty, but any other CEO is going to go straight for the jugular when it comes to AA's overwrought labor cost structure.

And you say AA won't go chapter 7? Don't bet on it. The labor problems right now are causing AA to lose millions of dollars every day by drawing out the bankruptcy/concessions issue. Right now, AA is getting the benefit of neither and is hemorraging cash.

When AA enters Ch 11 (which it will because of this), the creditors are the ones that decide a) how much the unions will get paid, and B) whether they value the AA assets more than the actual business AA runs.

At this point, the creditors could get more for AA's assets individually (planes, landing rights, etc) than they could for it's overall business.

Because AA's unions can't stand the thought of their executives getting the same perks that other Fortune 500 executives get, they will force AA into a Chapter 11 bankruptcy that it will never recover from. Mark my words.

 

[joejett]

YOU still don''t get it ------F R E N C H

 

[RV4]

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On 4/21/2003 5:09:13 PM AAObserver wrote:

Because AA's unions can't stand the thought of their executives getting the same perks that other Fortune 500 executives get, they will force AA into a Chapter 11 bankruptcy that it will never recover from. Mark my words.

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It wasn't the perks, it was the failure to disclose.

And your words are "marked". If AA never recovers from C-11 it will be because Carty kept playing a waiting game instead of making his move. It will be the non-decisions that hurt more than any made decision. The so-called bleeding of cash has been going on long before the unions got upset about the non-disclosure of perks.

Bring on a viable plan that will re-organize this company and a leader that has credibility with the worker and watch AA employees prove their the best and second to none! Mark my words.

 

[RV4]

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On 4/21/2003 5:28:51 PM AAObserver wrote:

By getting angry, voting down the concessions, and sending AA to ch 11, the unions are only hurting themselves. Carty will still have his money, but that won''t be the case for the unions. Very, very sad. And stupid.
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Can I borrow your crystal ball?

You seem to believe everything Carty says, and he said concessions may not keep AA out of Chapter 11. So get off your whining kick and quit claiming the unions are only to blame.

Given the history of AA, I suspect that this path we are on, is exactly as it needs to be for real survival. We may not see it now or like it, but my money is on a brighter future.

If you are so convinced that the Unions will take it in the shorts more now, then given your anti-union rhetoric, I would think Chapter 11 would please you. You appear so anti-union first and then sympathetic that the union may get worse in Chapter 11. I have no idea who your are but you have less credibility than Carty right now. You are the most emotional based confused person on this board right now.

 

[FrugalFlyer]

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On 4/21/2003 4:38:07 PM joejett wrote:

frualflyer (sorry but that opens up too much) if you read the post correctly I wasn''t bashing the Canadian,I was questioning his FRENCH side

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Alright, you may malign French Canadians, but not Canadians in general!

 

[RV4]

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On 4/21/2003 5:43:42 PM Imagolfer wrote:

RV4,

I would have to say that AAObserver is actually a very informed poster. Should anyone have an anti-union view, you see them as the enemy. I would have to say that you are the one-sided person on this board

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Thank you for your opinion. Shall I ramble on into a diatribe now about how you are misleading us, tell everyone how you really think, and then gain compassion like AAObserver?

No thanks, if that is what takes to get my point across it is useless anyway.

I happen to speak for myself and so should AAObserver. s/He spends more time telling us how we think, act, and believe and attacking than making productive conversation. And in your mind that makes him correct? OK, now we know where you stand, next?

 

[AAObserver]

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On 4/21/2003 5:15:27 PM RV4 wrote:

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On 4/21/2003 5:09:13 PM AAObserver wrote:

Because AA''s unions can''t stand the thought of their executives getting the same perks that other Fortune 500 executives get, they will force AA into a Chapter 11 bankruptcy that it will never recover from.  Mark my words.

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It wasn''t the perks, it was the failure to disclose.

And your words are "marked". If AA never recovers from C-11 it will be because Carty kept playing a waiting game instead of making his move. It will be the non-decisions that hurt more than any made decision. The so-called bleeding of cash has been going on long before the unions got upset about the non-disclosure of perks.

Bring on a viable plan that will re-organize this company and a leader that has credibility with the worker and watch AA employees prove their the best and second to none! Mark my words.

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He did disclose the retention bonuses some time back when he listed his concessions and compensation (there is a thread on here that shows it), but your union bosses apparently missed it.

And even if Carty did purposely not disclose them, why do you think he did it? Could it be because he knew that the unions would be so bitter about it that they would force AA into BK? Could it be that he did it to save the company?

It''s very similar to when a Flight Attendant on an international flight takes his/her first class dinner to the back of the plane, but covers it up so the coach passengers don''t see it. They do this so the hungry passengers don''t get bent out of shape.

By getting angry, voting down the concessions, and sending AA to ch 11, the unions are only hurting themselves. Carty will still have his money, but that won''t be the case for the unions. Very, very sad. And stupid.

 

[Imagolfer]

RV4,

I would have to say that AAObserver is actually a very informed poster. Should anyone have an anti-union view, you see them as the enemy. I would have to say that you are the one-sided person on this board