Doesn''t the sale of Worldspan by AA, prove that TWA could have sold it instead? Was TWA really abo

[MrMarky]

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On 7/16/2003 2:00:13 PM L1011Ret wrote:

I do not know how TWA would have gotten past 9/11. I believe the BOD was either planning a merger or cash and management assistance from Boeing. Would this be enough to get past 9/11? Who can say? TWA was usually cash rich at that point. I think most exTWAers question the possibility of TWA post 9/11. At that point it might have been C-11.

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Keep one thing in mind. Using round numbers, TWA accounted for about 20% of AA''s capacity in Sept. 2001. AA got a $1 Billion cash handout from us taxpayers following the 9/11 debacle. Logically, if TWA had still existed, they would have received somewhere around $200 Million, and AA''s take would have been reduced to around $800 Million or so.

Secondly, TWA would not have had to engage in the cost-cutting game AA has had to endure with labor, suppliers and all the rest. TWA had already done that. As I sarcastically replied to one poster right after the AA/TWA transaction (when there was great union banter going on between the two) "yes, TWA and AA employees will soon achieve pay parity -- at TWA''s wages!" Boy was I right.

I doubt TWA would have encountered much trouble getting their exhorbitant aircraft lease rates down to the levels AA achieved, in today''s environment. Nobody else has failed in that. While fuel prices remained stubbornly high, TWA was rapidly retiring its gas-guzzlers as the 717''s came online.

That leaves Karabu. And Karabu was scheduled to expire in two months -- Sept. 2003.

So draw your own conclusions. TWA had weathered worse storms in the past.

Now AA is 3 for 3 in the "Buy an airline and dismantle it" department.

Guess what will be next to go? The MCI MX base of course.

 

[BDLDFW]

Gee, it''s just too bad that AA doesn''t operate in a vacuum. Too bad there are outside forces or conditions that necessitate certain decisions. Too bad the economy gets in the way. Do you really think it''s AA''s intent to acquire carriers then toss them away? What looks like a good idea one day might not work out that way.

Is AA the only carrier that reshapes/reduces carriers it acquires?

Except for SLC, there''s not much left of WA in DL.
Not much of New York Air or Frontier left in CO.
WN doesn''t have too much of Muse or Morris left.

 

[flaptrack]

Well put MrMarky:

Now gone:

AirCal
Reno
TWA

A parent that beats one of her kids usually beats all of her kids( female gender intended)---history repeats itself---etc. etc. etc.

In 1988 I got to know a few AirCal people. I worked with them every day and they were of high caliber and experience. Most of them were canned when AA bought AirCal. The also told me they were told that if they ever applied for a job at AA they would be "just wasting their time" because AA would never hire them. What kind of $hit company is this?

 

[F/Oaa]

Well said.
We all knew it wouldn''t last.
Texas Taliban wipes out Missouri

 

[AAplanesareold]

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On 7/16/2003 9:59:44 AM FrugalFlyer wrote:

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On 7/16/2003 8:34:18 AM AAplanesareold wrote:

If TWA was really on the verge of bankruptcy, couldn't the sale of Worldsspan have given TWA some more breathing room?

Was TWA really about to go belly up?

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It's not beating a dead horse my friend. Don Carty and Bill Compton (otherwise none as Judas), sold a fairy tale to the U.S. government and the public to pull this farce off.

TWA was in trouble, but not enough trouble to go under.

I guess that AA contributions to the Bush campaign paid off big time.

 

[JFK777]

IF TWA is to be believed selling WORLDSPAN was going to save them ( FO 90 DAYS ). About an investment from Boeing, only the powers at be know. America West has had a checkered financial history, not the fix-it-all elixor TWA would have you believe. AA saved TWA and the bad economy and 9/11 made AA layoff lots of TWA'ers. With the war in Iraq and 9/11, an independent TWA would have LIQUIDATED.

 

[L1011Ret]

I do not believe for a minute that AA's motivation was to save TWA. In fact AA would rather have liked to see them out of business for competitive reasons. As Crandell used to say, we like to "crush our competitors." AA's public pronouncements indicated they wanted a "reliever hub" and did not want to be outdone by a UAL/US combination. Of course UAL/US did not go through and the need for a reliever hub is hardly necessary at the moment. I do know that at time of the initial offer of purchase January 10th, TWA had 157 million in cash and they were not considering bankruptcy. TWA typically lost 75 to 125 million in the first quarter. Compton, TWA CEO stated the the bankruptcy was totally AA's idea. I do know that BOD members have testified that there were the two offers, one from American West and the other from Boeing. Boeing's offer was contingent on management changes at the top of TWA. TWA generally had good cash flow through the summer. They might have survived 9/11 for a while but I cannot imagine they would have survived the winter. Did AA save TWA? That question is as questionable as whether TWA would have survived 9/11. Not very definitive. Considering that AA has nearly obliterated most of TWA and somewhere around 18000 or more of its 22000 employees, whether TWA was "saved" is questionable.

 

[Hopeful]

MCI must be on a witch hunt. Responding to a 7/16/01 post!

 

[MCI transplant]

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On 7/16/2003 9:03:31 AM Hopeful wrote:

Not according the thw TWAers! TWA had two suitors before they caved in to AA's demands!

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That's right Hopeful! But what's the point! A.A. ended up with us! The rest is history! So why not leave it at that!
All the speculation in the world won't bring TWA back! And it shouldn't! TWA was talking to two other companies at the time A.A.came along! But, no one can say "if" either would have panned out!

 

[MCI transplant]

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On 7/16/2003 1033 AM Hopeful wrote:

If AA shuts down MCI and STL, the TWAers will just get them there lawyers and start sueing again!

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You're right on that one Hopeful!!!!

 

[FibberMcGee]

Some of you have a tendancy to speak as if all TWA people sued. You have now closed STL and laid off pretty much the bulk of the former TWA workforce and some of you still want to be so meanspirited its pathetic. TWA is gone and I know it. You can speculate all you want about what might have happened. We'll never know. I have stated many times, although no one ever quoted what I had to say, that I was grateful that AA had acquired us. (Although being closed down naturally doesn't make me jump for joy). Here is my take on the situation:

The TWA purchase was done pre 9/11 with the intention of providing a relief hub in STL for DFW and ORD. The purchase price of TWA was very cheap for an established hub with a highly trained workforce (I'm proud that we were the best operating hub on the system). AA knew the O & D out of STL was probably not ever going to change much but the connecting traffic would most likely take up slack.

Okay, no one could have predicted the 9/11 happenings. This changed the dynamics of the entire industry (Except WN). AA was now having to be reactive due to its bleeding of red ink. Thousands of AA workers were laid off, all good people with families and homes and lives-many many former TWA people. As the business traveler dollars dropped and the traffic itself dropped the need for a 3rd hub in the mid section of the country became less necessary. (Personally, I think they pulled the plug too soon) When the STL hub closes AA will pretty much be back to the size it was pre acquisition. Your cusion of people to lay off is now gone. Does anyone honestly believe that had AA not purchased TWA that you would still be the same size and that many more of your nAAtive counterparts would not be out of a job? I was at the celebration of the TWO GREAT AIRLINES ONE GREAT FUTURE party was held. It was very friendly and we welcomed the chance to work for a profitable company. We were ready to give AA our best and we have done just that. The people of TWA is what kept it around for a long time after it was given up for dead. In the end the aquiring of TWA most likely extend our careers for a couple more years and thats all. Would I have liked for it to continue, you bet, it just wasn't meant to be. I have never once blamed the employees of AA for the seniority issue, none of us really had a say as to how it worked out. Some of blame the financial problems TWA faced on the workforce-that is a major crock. Icahn was the undoing of TWA plain and simple. Once he sold the prized LHR routes to oh who was it? mmmhh, Oh yeah it was AA! Great business move by AA. Can't blame you for that.
Between Icahn and OBL TWA was doomed. I sincerely hope that no one else gets the axe, I really do. I only hope that some of you will understand what it means to have your livelyhood taken away from you and to show a little compassion now and then. The nex 3 months will not be fun for us in STL. Keep that in mind if you happen to come through STL. Look around, you are looking at some fine people that will eventually recover form this but will be going through some very difficult years ahead. Be thankful its not you and pray it won't happen to you. As for the former TWAers, we did what was asked of us and more (As we always have). I plan on going out with class and dignity and hope to recover as quickly as possible. To my fellow AAers, I wish you only success and that you will never have to face what we at TWA have had to face.

 

[DFWCC]

FibberMcGEE, Very eloquent. I truly am sorry the way things have turned out. I blame OBL more than anything in this whole rotten scenario. I had always welcomed my fellow (ex-TWA) workers into AA. My thoughts on the seniority issue was a 3 for 1 split. 30 yrs at TWA equate to 10 and then merge in system wide. I know this would not satisfy everyone but that was impossible. Although many great workers would still have lost their jobs the pain would be more evenly spread.
Maybe the solution is to have a "national seniority list" for all airline workers by dept. That would solve allot of problems in the future. Wouldn't it be great to know you wouldn't have to start at the bottom if you had to change airlines?
The best of luck and all HIS good graces to you and your family.. DFWCC

 

[N305AS]

AAplanesareold-

Do you see black helicopters EVERYWHERE you go, or just when visiting aviation websites?

Seriously, get a hobby! You're a threat to dead horses everywhere.

 

[AAplanesareold]

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On 7/28/2003 2:52:52 PM N305AS wrote:

AAplanesareold-

Do you see black helicopters EVERYWHERE you go, or just when visiting aviation websites?

Seriously, get a hobby! You're a threat to dead horses everywhere.

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Dead horses do not need to fear my wrath. Only those on the dark side of the force!

 

[AAplanesareold]

In brightest day and darkest night...no evil shall escape my sight...let those who worship eveil's might...beware my power, Green Lantern's light!

See...even the Green Lantern thinks something is fishy here!