Delta TechOps wins Top Shop award

[topDawg]

you touched on three subjects.

first - pension. remember that DL employees other than the PMDL pilots have FROZEN, not terminated pensions. No non-pilot DL employee has lost any of his/her pension benefits or the rules of those pension plans.

not my problem. First, if you want to go down this road then pull the 15% match from the NW pilots who have a pension still or STFU about it. Its a horse crap argument to begin with. ALPA failed its members, not me.

Remember that PMDL non-pilot pension plans included the right to begin pension benefits as early as 52. you can tell me what other airlines allowed that but in the case of AA employees who have frozen and not terminated pension benefits, they can't do that. Even with the social security offset, the reason why DL has been able to convince as many senior workers to leave is because they can access their pension benefits early enough to have a second career.

You know what this means to most of us? not a damn thing. Most non-pilots will have to work well past 52.
 

as for current pension benefits, you can argue rightfully that DL employees need to see improved retirement funding now but the huge profit sharing payouts that DL employees are seeing right now is a HUGE opportunity to fund 401ks and that is precisely where WN profit sharing goes.

Sorry, WN has a higher 401K match than we do.
and I know its all sun shinny and unicorn pissing rainbows in WT land, but in the real world a lot of people use the PS pay for things like, you know a light bill. I will have to check with Georgia power but I don't think think "WT says it needs to go into my 401K" is going to cut the mustard.
(note, i am not one of these people. I am not depending on Delta to take care of me when i get old, but i am in the very small minority of people like that)

DL employees should be funneling huge amounts of that profit sharing check into their 401ks and in the process also eliminate much of the extra withholding that comes from lump sum pay as large as what DL profit sharing is becoming.

read above, life is not as simple as you make it out to be.

and according to some DL pilots, the profit sharing checks for them are pushing many of them into the Alternative Minimum Tax which is all the more reason to not plan to spend that money but to push it into retirement savings.

man i feel sorry for them...... not.

second, I don't disagree with your arguments about the quality and long-term cost of sending lots of heavy maintenance out - but DL is not any worse off in that regard than its peers at other airlines including WN that have long sent large amounts of their maintenance out the door since the beginning of that company.

I don't even no what that means. They send out more work than AA, for example.
 

and again, the issue for DL is that previous mgmt. teams dismantled huge amounts of the maintenance infrastructure around the country and that cannot be quickly rebuilt

I guess only hangars can be built in Mexico eh? Or does that not count.

- and on the same basis AA will not bring back much of the work which they AA plus US have sent out up to this point.

I don't think you know what you are talking about. Unless you happen to have a list of what each airline sends out and what space and capacity they have at existing bases then i don't know how you can comment.
having said that, US mostly sends out engines and components and as you have seen with DL/NW most of those items (especially components) can generally be fit into existing space.

DL is turning the corner - the first time since 9/11 - in making significant investments in maintenance facilities to bring work back to DL on a long-term basis. that is a good sign but those investments are laying the framework for how maintenance will be run for years to come.

agreed, hope they keep it up.

 

[topDawg]

and third, you sound just like a pilot with your "not a single more large RJ" nonsense but it really isn't supported by even the most basic logic.

You are right, give them more RJs, add more seats.....hell let them fly 747s....because at the end of the day, f*&k history. Delta "cares" about its employees.

Delta had over 700 airplanes in 200.....then they started parking airplanes like the 732 and 722 with no mainline replacements
but plenty of RJs.

even with the most restrictive scope language, AA and UA BOTH had regional carrier route systems that carried as much or more traffic as DL's did.

Work that is being done by outsourced companies is not mainline work, REGARDLESS OF THE SIZE of the aircraft used

still clearly missing my point.

To try to portray large RJs as some huge boogey man while excusing the flying that hundreds more 50 seat aircraft do is beyond logic, esp. since UA (and CO before it) has used its 50 seat RJs to fly routes more than halfway acorss the country - 3 plus hour flights.

CO was flying those long 50 seat flights because of scope.
but lets not act like Delta didn't have some long ass 50 seat flying at one time or another.

DL is the only one of the big 3 that has been consistently shrinking its total regional carrier operation and shifting that flying to mainline. UA is now starting to do the same but on a smaller scale than DL, likely because UA is now beginning to have options to get rid of the huge number of 50 seaters in their fleet and to rationalize their hubs.

once again, simple math dude. Delta had the ability to add 255 big RJs a long time ago. (now at 300+)
America has had that ability for a year. It isn't hard to understand.
Delta is dumping RJ capacity because they don't have much of a choice while AA/UA still have the ability to match Delta with large RJs while replacing the small RJs)

further, DL DID agree to reduce total RJ flying in return for bringing in the 717 which is a key part of DL's strategy to increase its mainline presence.

Yes, Delta got ALPA to agree to something that was going to happen anyways but instead of just letting it happen, ALPA to the bait and gave them more big RJs.

Given that DL is acquiring every additional 717 it can get and there are rumors that DL wants to place an order for new build 100 seat class jets - perhaps the E or E2 jet -

stop listening to pilots.

DL recognizes the value of small jets in the mainline fleet, something AA and UA have not done.

We don't know what AA will or wont do, as it now they have a 717 type airplane in the merged fleet.

add in that even if ALPA further allows DL to trade more large RJs with likely elimination of 50 seat flying much faster than DL earlier predicted, and DL will have upgauged its network while shifting more total flying back to mainline than either AA or UA have done - and still provided more jobs for DL employees across the board while putting mainline service into more cities than any other US airline has done or can do.

I can see ALPA doing something that stupid.
having said that, Delta doesn't want completely out of the 50 seat game. They have a place in the network, just not 500 of them.

just as with maintenance, DL can't just flip a switch with its regional operations but they have been committed to a strategy of BOTH shifting regional carrier flying to mainline WHILE ALSO upgauging the remaining regional carrier flying to larger RJs.

Delta could have the mainline airplanes flying for DCI at mainline real quick if they wanted. They just don't and ALPA is going to protect the little ALPA carriers.
DALPA is just to stupid to see that is what is happening. (or they don't care.....or a like Lee Moak and

back to the stupid thing)

 

[WorldTraveler]

most pilots will work well beyond 52 as well. The difference is that most non-pilots have transferrable skills that they can use in other industries.

there is no problem.

it is simply a fact that PMDL non-pilot employees have a frozen pension that they can begin drawing at 52; I have yet to hear of any terminated pensions being drawn on at that age from the PBGC.

--

you are still hung up on the type of aircraft that is used for regional operations. DL is cutting regional flying OVERALL, regardless if it also involves converting the flying that is retained to 76 seaters.

and UA still operates a smaller percentage of its domestic route system on mainline aircraft than DL or AA.

and AA's domestic regional system is larger relative to its mainline domestic system than DL's.

you can beat the 76 seat RJ issue as long as you want but when other carriers carry more of their domestic passengers on RJs of any kind, then the argument about the size of plane used is meaningless.

if you are using your profit sharing to pay monthly expenses like the light bill, then you are clearly in over your head financially given that profit sharing payouts have never been made more often that twice per year and by the arguments that many make here, profit sharing is not a guarantee so you shouldn't be paying monthly bills with it.

perhaps you meant something else....

and it isn't a given that it is worth keeping 50 seaters. that was the plan that DL said and may or may

 

[700UW]

a US Air pension?

U.S. Airways' pension

 

[Kev3188]

Delta doesn't want completely out of the 50 seat game. They have a place in the network, just not 500 of them.

Bring back the Dash-8!

 

[WorldTraveler]

U.S. Airways' pension

had you already left US at the time they terminated their pension plans?

I didn't remember the date when US changed to US Airways.

 

[700UW]

I was on the NC when our pension was terminated and was still at US.

And it was 96 or 98 when the name changed

 

[WorldTraveler]

generally, the PBGC establishes normal retirement age for pensions it has taken over as being

http://www.pbgc.gov/about/faq/pg/general-faqs-about-pbgc.html

however, the PBGC has determined and can determine that earlier retirement age provisions of a plan can be used.

 

[700UW]

The PBGC adheres to the plan rules and terms upon a takeover.

 

[robbedagain]

the name I believe changed in 96 under Wolf/Gangwal era    When I hired on in 98 it was USAirways  

 

[topDawg]

most pilots will work well beyond 52 as well. The difference is that most non-pilots have transferrable skills that they can use in other industries.

again....don't care. Its as simply as that. Pilots made life choices and that is on them.

it is simply a fact that PMDL non-pilot employees have a frozen pension that they can begin drawing at 52; I have yet to hear of any terminated pensions being drawn on at that age from the PBGC.

one of those company talking point that mean jack diddly dog s....poop to 99.9999999% of the employee population. Very few people, company wide and world wide that are blue collar are going to leave at age 52. I know one person who has left Delta early and is drawing his pension, but he was merit.

--

you are still hung up on the type of aircraft that is used for regional operations. DL is cutting regional flying OVERALL, regardless if it also involves converting the flying that is retained to 76 seaters.

I have said that 100 times. You still can't grasp my point.

you can beat the 76 seat RJ issue as long as you want but when other carriers carry more of their domestic passengers on RJs of any kind, then the argument about the size of plane used is meaningless.

in your vacuum world maybe, but here in the real world it matters.

if you are using your profit sharing to pay monthly expenses like the light bill, then you are clearly in over your head financially given that profit sharing payouts have never been made more often that twice per year and by the arguments that many make here, profit sharing is not a guarantee so you shouldn't be paying monthly bills with it.

Life hint, don't give the guy with a finance degree finance tips.
Again, I am more than fine with all of that, but plenty of people have that thing called life get in the way. Plenty of people don't even get the full 5% match because they simply cant afford it. It isn't my job to judge those people.

I know if my kid got sick, or one guy I know who has cancer....bills come first. Your lucky and I'm lucky we don't have those issues but it doesn't mean that everyone pissing unicorn tears like you do......

perhaps you meant something else....

nope said what i said and meant it. When you live month to month day to day you use what you got. its that simple

and it isn't a given that it is worth keeping 50 seaters. that was the plan that DL said and may or may

according to management they set the 125 number for a reason.
having said that Delta just re-upped its contract with RP (or S5 which ever airline they are now) for the ERJs in the DCI fleet to go into the 2020s. That contract alone is worth 40+ aircraft.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I hardly live in a world of pixie dust and unicorns but I also know that kids don't just "show up" and decide to go to college.

if someone has to use their profit sharing check to pay regular bills, then that IS their choice - but then don't argue about how underpaid you are if you RELY on profit sharing to pay regular bills.

I can assure you that your gross pay and that of other topped out DL mechanics even before profit sharing is well above average for most American workers who don't have profit sharing.

and yes, pilots like you do make life choices but the reality is that DL DOES give most of its employees the ability to leave and collect a pension as early as 52. A few companies do it, but not many.

I'm not saying that DL will reduce beyond the stated 125 or that they haven't renewed RP's contract - but that contract is also unilaterally cancellable on pretty generous terms favoring DL.

and I suspect a great deal of that flexibility is there because DL and RP don't really know if the regional jet network can be staffed 2 years let alone 10 years into the future.

Part of DL's reason for shifting more and more flying to DL mainline is not only because it makes financial sense NOW and partly because DL doesn't want to wake up some morning and realize that half of its regional carrier network can't be flown because of regional carrier pilot shortages which don't seem close to being reality for DL mainline.

DL made the network changes to support larger airline and DL is now in a position to upgauge even 50 seat aircraft where those still remain. There are very few cities where DL flies less than 3 50 seat flights per day which is about the minimum number of flights and seats that a market can sustain without being a monopoly market or be subsidized.

 

[topDawg]

I hardly live in a world of pixie dust and unicorns but I also know that kids don't just "show up" and decide to go to college.

okay few things,
yes sometimes kids do just show up. Google mistake baby.
second, cancer just shows up. Health problems just show up. Other issues just show up.

Again, you are lucky that you can piss rainbows, but others aren't that lucky. How stuff like the above is hard for you to understand is really amazing though.

if someone has to use their profit sharing check to pay regular bills, then that IS their choice - but then don't argue about how underpaid you are if you RELY on profit sharing to pay regular bills.

again, try to read this and understand it. I am not talking about ME but others.

I can assure you that your gross pay and that of other topped out DL mechanics even before profit sharing is well above average for most American workers who don't have profit sharing.

Can you for, just one second, stop being a bean counter and see life as it really is not what Delta or the .gov puts on a piece of paper and tells you it is.
Clearly you are a very lucky person who doesn't have any issues and i hope that stays.
But i know more than a few people who rely on very cent they get to pay bills.

Also, Delta doesn't just have mechanics. A ramp person living in NYC who's wife just got layed off and his kid has cancer isn't anywhere close to being able to put a ton of money into a 401K.

and yes, pilots like you do make life choices but the reality is that DL DOES give most of its employees the ability to leave and collect a pension as early as 52. A few companies do it, but not many.

WT back to finding a talking point to kiss Delta ass that once again means jack horse crap to 99.9% of the people at Delta.
Okay you can leave a 52, awesome. Fantastic.
Again, real world dude. Real world.

I'm not saying that DL will reduce beyond the stated 125 or that they haven't renewed RP's contract - but that contract is also unilaterally cancellable on pretty generous terms favoring DL.

by generous you mean they have to assume the leases on the aircraft and pay a cancellation fee then okay.

Part of DL's reason for shifting more and more flying to DL mainline is not only because it makes financial sense NOW and partly because DL doesn't want to wake up some morning and realize that half of its regional carrier network can't be flown because of regional carrier pilot shortages which don't seem close to being reality for DL mainline.

Which i really hope does happen. Mainline carriers have created the monster at the RJ level and i have been enjoying the hell of of the mad scramble to find pilots they can treat like crap. Once the pool runs completely dry it will be awesome.

 

[WorldTraveler]

first, if you aren't talking about yourself and your financial situation, then don't try to be the spokesman for others.

I completely get the concepts you laid out.

you can tell me the percentage of people who have had a spouse laid off or have a chronic or terminal disease which is costing them enormous amounts of personal money - even DL's insurance has out of pocket limits - and then you have a point.

the simple fact is that you can't argue that profit sharing can't be counted on long-term and then tell me that you or others have built your financial plans based on using every cent and more of that profit sharing check to pay day to day bills.

If people are doing that, they are on the verge of financial collapse and that collapse is likely to come one wayor the other unless they address the underlying financial problem including living day to day within the confines of one's salary.

that's not a bean counter perspective. That is one of someone who has decided not to follow the vast majority of Americans in taking on more and more debt while failing to plan for the future.

In case you missed it, Delta Air Lines is operating its business in a very similar manner to what I use in my personal life and just like DL, I have had my share of financial crises - anything but rainbows - and it is precisely because of those events that I am all the more committed to not allowing myself to go anywhere close to that again.

as to the RJ issue, your arguments are true but they don't change that DL operates a smaller percentage of its network on regional carriers than AA and UA.

You can't logically argue against 76 seaters at DL unless you also decry the much larger overall regional carrier operations at AA and UA - and AA is still well into the regional carrier growth mode.

 

[topDawg]

first, if you aren't talking about yourself and your financial situation, then don't try to be the spokesman for others.

Ah the old you got yours so shut up argument. I think i have made it clear that i am just as worries about ALL airline employees not just me. The I got mine crowd is what has been slowly killing labor in this industry and its good to see management (or ex management) pushing that.

as to the RJ issue, your arguments are true but they don't change that DL operates a smaller percentage of its network on regional carriers than AA and UA.

never said that wasn't the case.....