Delta reports record profit for Q4

[Airlinelifer]

not sure where AA employees were but wasn't losing a week part of AA's plan?

Losing a week (or 2 depending on your seniority) in bad times to help the company get back on its feet is what the airlines do to cut costs, but when times are good, we all could use the week(s) we lost. We can go back to the original years served to attain the weeks loss or add to the original years to attain the week(s) lost.

I would like to know the actual percentage of employees that make it to 20, 25, or 30+ years of service.

 

[topDawg]

not sure where AA employees were but wasn't losing a week part of AA's plan?

United, in the post BK world i believe has 2 more weeks than Delta......

 

[Kev3188]

not sure where AA employees were but wasn't losing a week part of AA's plan?

And?

 

[WorldTraveler]

it's great to pick out all of these one item comparisons between companies and ask why doesn't DL match or best each one of those... without acknowledging that compensation is a package. It is impossible to expect that any company would be top ranking among every category and still be cost competitive on the bottom line which is what it takes to be able to survive long term - multiple bankruptcies among network carriers show that when a company loses its cost competitiveness long term, it will either fail or it will have to cut very deeply in order to regain it.
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While touting UA's vacation policy, somehow it is forgotten that UA was by far the most aggressive of the big 3 in decimating maintenance ... and has the least restrictive large RJ scope policy - and their employees are still not the highest paid in every category.
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AA obviously the took the least common denominator approach with its current proposals to ensure that no carrier has an advantage relative to AA - lost the 5th week, eliminated scope for many workgroups while pushing the RJ scope to even larger aircraft than currently allowed, terminated DB pension plans....
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and let's not forget that DL and PMNW employees remain the only network employees in the industry who have any defined benefit pension benefits controlled by the company. Given that the benefits were frozen, every active or former employee stands to be able to gain more pension benefits sooner than they would have if the PBGC took over the plans. DL continues to fund those pension plans to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars per year.
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A little perspective will show that DL does indeed have real competitive advantages in its compensation package than other carriers - and even if other carriers surpass DL in some categories, DL employees combined with their PMNW peers have repeatedly decided that they really can't expect to get a better compensation package in other ways.
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The overwhelming sentment I heard from the dozens of DL employees I talked with - PMNW and PMDL - is that DL may not be everything anyone wants but they are as good as any other option and there is no reason to think that with adaptation anyone can't figure out how to win in a system that while unique in the industry is just on its own merits.
While some want to childlishly turn such appraisals into over the top worship of DL, an honest assessment acknowledges that DL is no worse off than other options but takes a different approach to being what it is.
For the vast majority of people who have figured out how to adapt to a new environment, the potential is as much as it would be in any other job in the airline industry - and in any case far more driven by one's individual capabilities and initiative than the framework in which one works.
.

 

[topDawg]

it's great to pick out all of these one item comparisons between companies and ask why doesn't DL match or best each one of those... without acknowledging that compensation is a package. It is impossible to expect that any company would be top ranking among every category and still be cost competitive on the bottom line which is what it takes to be able to survive long term - multiple bankruptcies among network carriers show that when a company loses its cost competitiveness long term, it will either fail or it will have to cut very deeply in order to regain it. That use to be Delta. Top of everything. So no its not impossible to to think a company would treat its employees good.
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While touting UA's vacation policy, somehow it is forgotten that UA was by far the most aggressive of the big 3 in decimating maintenance ... and has the least restrictive large RJ scope policy - and their employees are still not the highest paid in every category.
.NW had 6 weeks, the ramp did that is.....and they had a heck of a lot more mainline ramp stations than Delta. I also believe CO and US all have AT LEAST 5 weeks.
AA obviously the took the least common denominator approach with its current proposals to ensure that no carrier has an advantage relative to AA - lost the 5th week, eliminated scope for many workgroups while pushing the RJ scope to even larger aircraft than currently allowed, terminated DB pension plans....
.errr so pretty much what Delta did to its employees?
and let's not forget that DL and PMNW employees remain the only network employees in the industry who have any defined benefit pension benefits controlled by the company. Given that the benefits were frozen, every active or former employee stands to be able to gain more pension benefits sooner than they would have if the PBGC took over the plans. DL continues to fund those pension plans to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars per year.
.again this does nothing for me. Delta is paying bills it said it would pay....what a shocking idea. which i could tell the bank that owns my house that i changed my mind because my "Cost" were to high.
A little perspective will show that DL does indeed have real competitive advantages in its compensation package than other carriers - and even if other carriers surpass DL in some categories, DL employees combined with their PMNW peers have repeatedly decided that they really can't expect to get a better compensation package in other ways.
.er they do? want to tell me what they are other than pay?.....and it has a lot more to do with the unions vs loving being Non-Union. I think its union time for Delta and I voted no for AMFA.....
The overwhelming sentment I heard from the dozens of DL employees I talked with - PMNW and PMDL - is that DL may not be everything anyone wants but they are as good as any other option and there is no reason to think that with adaptation anyone can't figure out how to win in a system that while unique in the industry is just on its own merits.
While some want to childlishly turn such appraisals into over the top worship of DL, an honest assessment acknowledges that DL is no worse off than other options but takes a different approach to being what it is.
For the vast majority of people who have figured out how to adapt to a new environment, the potential is as much as it would be in any other job in the airline industry - and in any case far more driven by one's individual capabilities and initiative than the framework in which one works.
.why should I adapt when Anderson and Co. are still doing great and are 60% in the hole?

 

[WorldTraveler]

ok...let's boil this down to one simple point.
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You can talk about the 5th week of vacation, building hangars, a few hundred dollars more for uniform allowance or medical insurance - but NONE of this compares to the cost of what DL is spending to retain its DB plans under its control instead of turning them over to the PBGC. All the arguments comparing DL to other carriers pails in comparison to the difference in pension benefits DL is providing that those other carriers are not... and more significantly, other carriers made those same commitments but apparently had/are having no problems in terminating those plans and giving them to the PBGC - which ultimately might need a taxpaper bailout - or the real possibility exists that Congress might decide in the event of a bailout that they will not fully provide all of the benefits that have been earned.
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DL probably would have terminated all of its plans in BK if they knew they were going to have to invest the amount of money in their pension plans that they are now doing... indeed DL's contributions are 2-3X today what they were right after BK. It is precisely record low interest rates that make the contributions DL must make higher and which also make it virtually impossible for AMR to come up with an exit plan that keeps its pension plans intact while requiring them to contribute the same half a billion dollars per year to their plans that they have done in the past couple years.
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Do you understand that in 2011 DL contributed more than 10% of its entire salary and benefits cost for the year to fund its FROZEN pensions?
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Do you understand that DL has committed to correcting its pension underfunding which now amounts to more than $10B (I haven't seen the most recent numbers) which would mean that if DL didn't spend a single dollar on salary or benefits for more than a year and instead invested it in their pension plans, they would not erase the underfunding?
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And Anderson and co. have figured out to maintain that commitment and still deliver financial results better than most of its peers in the industry.
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Reduce that contribution down to your own salary and DL will be investing several months worth of additional salary in your retirement that other airlines have chosen/are choosing to eliminate.
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All of the complaints about the social security offset which Delta applied now seem virtually meaningless considering that other airline employees won't collect anything before social security would have kicked in anyway.
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Even though most of those other airline employees are supposed to receive their full benefits, there is no assurance that will happen, and even if they did get what they contributed, they will have to wait much longer to get it.

When your peers at other network carriers are forced to work in their 60s and beyond because they can't begin to retire, you will be able to begin collection pension benefits in your 50s (not sure what the age was for NW's plans but it is still before Medicare kicks in).
And since there is a time value of money, it is likely that by collecting benefits much earlier than your peers, you will ultimately collect much more than they.
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So, yeah, I get the idea of wanting an extra week of vacation and all of those other relatively small things in comparison.
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But my suggestion is that you recognize the enormous expense which DL is incurring, even if they did not plan to spend as much as they are at the present time. It also becomes far more significant to realize that DL has made a commitment to its current and former employees - and as such they will be forced to seek cost savings that may mean less growth in the number of DL employees - ie more outsourcing.
But if keeping one's word has any value, then it would seem that DL is doing the right thing by keeping the commitment it made to the employees for whom it said it would retain its pension benefits.
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In light of that commitment, other desires don't seem quite as significant.
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You might want to ask some of your peers in the industry whose companies have terminated their pension plans if they would prefer to have DL employees' compensation package..

 

[NWANWA]

The profit must have to do with cutting services for the paying passenger. I was disgusted after a recent flight in economy on a 767 to Europe. The food was subpar, the cabin worn, flight attendents tired, drop down screens for entertainment and the business class look like something out of the dark ages. It was filled with employees as well riding on passes. There were very few actual paying customers up there. There was a stark contrast bewteen Delta and other U.S. carriers. maybe it was just an off flight, but I will stick to flying American in Business or First and European airlines in coach to Europe.

 

[WorldTraveler]

The profit must have to do with cutting services for the paying passenger. I was disgusted after a recent flight in economy on a 767 to Europe. The food was subpar, the cabin worn, flight attendents tired, drop down screens for entertainment and the business class look like something out of the dark ages. It was filled with employees as well riding on passes. There were very few actual paying customers up there. There was a stark contrast bewteen Delta and other U.S. carriers. maybe it was just an off flight, but I will stick to flying American in Business or First and European airlines in coach to Europe.

perhaps you aren't aware that DL is retrofitting the entire cabins on its 767 fleet. There is no doubt that the 767s need refurbishing and DL is installing lie flat business class seats and personal video on demand at every seat. The product is identical to the 764s which DL already operates and is a very competitive product.
It is also noteworthy that while other carriers are renovating their international fleets - esp. UA/CO - no US carrier offers a full lie flat seat in business class or AVOD throughout.
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As for the comment about the plane being full of employees, this time of year is precisely when demand to Europe is low and airline employees stand a good chance not only getting on the flight but also getting into the premium classes. There are several sources of information to validate what kind of fare carriers receive and one is average fares and load factor by carrier which can be obtained from DOT data. DL's average fares on its transatlantic network are above average for the US industry, topped only by UA/CO which have higher average fares.
DL and UA/CO both have a high percentage of flights to continental Europe which commands higher average fares... UA/CO's partnership with LH results in very strong traffic to points further than western Europe than what AA, DL, and US carry, so the Star alliance does carry some of the highest value traffic across the Atlantic. For carriers with more focus in Europe itself, DL obtains fares at or above the average.
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Most customer service tracking rates DL at or above average among its peers with regard to service.

As a passenger your perspective is different than that of an airline employee and it is certainly true that if airlines don't provide value and a product which you are willing to buy, then all the benefits to the employee mean nothing in terms of job security.

but how do your comments here stack up with this quote?

I only used to only use United to Asia. I was disgusted though to hear that their management gutted their retiree's pensions and many who retired at that airline in the 2000s lost everything. I won't fly an airline like that throws its employees under the bus and its junior employees stand by and watch as their peers sacrifice it all for the company and management. If this occurs at American they will lose my business. I hope not as I generally have enjoyed the service and the employees on American.

http://airlineforums.com/topic/52671-looking-back/

DL (other than PMDL pilots) and PMCO are the only network carrier employees who continue to have non-terminated pension plans. How are you going to figure out which employees are PMDL and which are PMDL (other than pilots)? Or maybe you'll just choose to fly on foreign carriers which have nationalized health care and richer government funded social security systems.
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DL is not the only carrier that continues to upgrade its product and invest in resources, but within the scope of the discussion here, particularly with respect to benefits, DL's commitment to its pension plans is a costly commitment that it has chosen to make - and one which it clearly hopes will translate into employees who are willing to buy a product and service that you as a consumer are willing to buy.
competition is tough, though, and no company can afford to miss an opportunity to win over a new customer.

 

[Kev3188]

When your peers at other network carriers are forced to work in their 60s and beyond because they can't begin to retire...

DL employees are in the same boat, unless they want to forgo medical insurance.

 

[WorldTraveler]

DL employees are in the same boat, unless they want to forgo medical insurance.

most employees at US companies do not have retiree medical anymore... the difference is that most employees have DC retirement plans so they can retire before Medicare kicks in... they still have to find insurance somewhere and while expensive, you can find it in the US outside of being an employee. With frozen DB benefits, most DL/NW employees can begin collecting their DB benefits and then either get another job, live in another country where health care is available for much less, or buy a catastrophic only plan in the US (or go naked w/ respect to insurance) and then become a medical tourist when needed. Most airline retirees do possess the travel benefits that allow them to acquire products and services where they make the most sense.
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Most airline employees are pretty marketable and could get a job at another company with many working in small businesses that they have developed while they were airline employees.
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I'm not minimizing the challenges that the changes that have taken place in airline compensation have on current or former airline employees. I am saying that I have met many active and former airline employees who have figured out how to work within the system they now have, have no expectations about returning to the previously generous compensation schemes of the past, and who are thriving amidst the difficulties which, honestly in the scope of things, are alot smaller than alot of Americans have faced - or currently face.
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It is that perspective on where each of us stands relative to others that is helpful in recognizing that it could be a whole lot worse but airline employees (active or former) have some unique assets which they should use to their benefit.

 

[Kev3188]

most employees at US companies do not have retiree medical anymore...

That's nice, except you were comparing Ma Delta to the rest of the US network carriers.

Funny though how after all the posts about how "different" DL is, you then note that they're, well, just like any other company...

 

[WorldTraveler]

That's nice, except you were comparing Ma Delta to the rest of the US network carriers.

Funny though how after all the posts about how "different" DL is, you then note that they're, well, just like any other company...

apparently you missed the part about DL and PMNW people being the only post BK airline employees that didn't have their companies turn over their pensions to the PBGC.... and the CO pension benefits that exist are all post BK.
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That in itself is considerably different not only from other airlines but a whole lot of other companies.
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When you consider that more than 100 airlines have failed since deregulation, just making it 34 years after deregulation is quite an accomplishment - a differentiating one at that.
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DL is a company - it is not your spouse or your family. Among expectations for US based employers, particularly within the airline industry, DL delivers a decent if not superior value proposition - or at least the majority of current employees seem to think so - or at least they don't think there is much more that they could do to force an improvement.

 

[Kev3188]

apparently you missed the part about DL and PMNW people being the only post BK airline employees that didn't have their companies turn over their pensions to the PBGC.... and the CO pension benefits that exist are all post BK.

Nope, didn't miss it (wasn't news to me, anyway); just pointing out the contradicting stance(s) in your posts.

DL is a company - it is not your spouse or your family.

You should tell that to everyone at the widget working day in/day out to convince us all otherwise; maybe it'll do some good.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I don't think it is contradictory to note that DL has not dumped its pensions but at the same time is JUST a company... it is others who want to try and equate any positive words to some sort of religious fanaticism.... other companies have their plusses and minuses too. At the end of the day, DL people apparently think that either their situation isn't as bad as it is at other companies or that there isn't any real mechanism in place that would make things much better.
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Insomuch as I have a platform here, I am happy to provide a balanced perspective... but keep in mind that the same balance that I have tried to use to speak about other airlines is perceived as nothing short of a diabolical attack - while they deny that their company can do any wrong.
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The reality is that it is called work for a reason... excessive expectations about what it will deliver are going to be met with disappointment while a lack of hope that there can be some pleasure in work makes spending 1/4 of most people's lives an absolute ball and chain.
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I tend to live life more focused on the positive, believing that whatever the past hasn't delivered might possibly be improved upon in the future.

 

[topDawg]

ok...let's boil this down to one simple point.
.
You can talk about the 5th week of vacation, building hangars, a few hundred dollars more for uniform allowance or medical insurance - but NONE of this compares to the cost of what DL is spending to retain its DB plans under its control instead of turning them over to the PBGC. All the arguments comparing DL to other carriers pails in comparison to the difference in pension benefits DL is providing that those other carriers are not... and more significantly, other carriers made those same commitments but apparently had/are having no problems in terminating those plans and giving them to the PBGC - which ultimately might need a taxpaper bailout - or the real possibility exists that Congress might decide in the event of a bailout that they will not fully provide all of the benefits that have been earned.
.
DL probably would have terminated all of its plans in BK if they knew they were going to have to invest the amount of money in their pension plans that they are now doing... indeed DL's contributions are 2-3X today what they were right after BK. It is precisely record low interest rates that make the contributions DL must make higher and which also make it virtually impossible for AMR to come up with an exit plan that keeps its pension plans intact while requiring them to contribute the same half a billion dollars per year to their plans that they have done in the past couple years.
.
Do you understand that in 2011 DL contributed more than 10% of its entire salary and benefits cost for the year to fund its FROZEN pensions?
.
Do you understand that DL has committed to correcting its pension underfunding which now amounts to more than $10B (I haven't seen the most recent numbers) which would mean that if DL didn't spend a single dollar on salary or benefits for more than a year and instead invested it in their pension plans, they would not erase the underfunding?
.
And Anderson and co. have figured out to maintain that commitment and still deliver financial results better than most of its peers in the industry.
.
Reduce that contribution down to your own salary and DL will be investing several months worth of additional salary in your retirement that other airlines have chosen/are choosing to eliminate.
.
All of the complaints about the social security offset which Delta applied now seem virtually meaningless considering that other airline employees won't collect anything before social security would have kicked in anyway.
.
Even though most of those other airline employees are supposed to receive their full benefits, there is no assurance that will happen, and even if they did get what they contributed, they will have to wait much longer to get it.

When your peers at other network carriers are forced to work in their 60s and beyond because they can't begin to retire, you will be able to begin collection pension benefits in your 50s (not sure what the age was for NW's plans but it is still before Medicare kicks in).
And since there is a time value of money, it is likely that by collecting benefits much earlier than your peers, you will ultimately collect much more than they.
.
So, yeah, I get the idea of wanting an extra week of vacation and all of those other relatively small things in comparison.
.
But my suggestion is that you recognize the enormous expense which DL is incurring, even if they did not plan to spend as much as they are at the present time. It also becomes far more significant to realize that DL has made a commitment to its current and former employees - and as such they will be forced to seek cost savings that may mean less growth in the number of DL employees - ie more outsourcing.
But if keeping one's word has any value, then it would seem that DL is doing the right thing by keeping the commitment it made to the employees for whom it said it would retain its pension benefits.
.
In light of that commitment, other desires don't seem quite as significant.
.
You might want to ask some of your peers in the industry whose companies have terminated their pension plans if they would prefer to have DL employees' compensation package..

People who get money the DB plan maybe. Me? someone who gets nothing(or very very little) I don't give a rats ass about it tell you the truth. So quit telling me how lucky i am. I have a sub par 401K match, 1-2 less weeks of vacation than my peers, way to much out sourced work, less sick time, higher insurance, lower uniform pay etc.etc. But thank God Delta is paying that pension plan that i would see any of. My family will have a much better meal to night because of that. I will be able to tak off more to see my family because of that. When my family gets sick it will be ok because Delta pays its gosh darn pension plan it promised to tits employees. Good for me. :angry:

quit trying so hard....and sucking at it. 😉