Delta Bankruptcy Soon

[UnitedChicago]

They are willing to take their chances with the judge (and one paycut, not two)

[post="189544"][/post]​

Such a typical response. Tell me this - when has a judge advocated for less concessions? The judge will do what's in the best interest of the estate. Period. US pilots are going on their third paycut under the judges watch.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Whether the pilots trust the company is not going to determine the outcome of the concessions. The size of the request DL wants and the timing of when they are through playing games will.
And as we all know from a couple rounds of bankruptcy filings at US, the judge almost always sides with the company and their request for relief. Right now, Delta's proposal puts them fairly close to AA pilots. If DL files for bankruptcy because of a lack of an agreement, the 50% of the contract DL is asking for will probably become more like 75%. After all, if US, who is DL's most direct network competitors, can say that their competition is the LCCs and they need labor costs to match, it isn't much of a stretch at all for DL to ask for the same thing from its pilots and non-contract employees too. No labor group has yet to succeed in holding out for a better offer. It sure didn't work at UA, now did it? Which is exactly why I think most DL pilots will demonstrate more intelligence than what has been exhibited in Chicago.

 

[UnitedChicago]

No labor group has yet to succeed in holding out for a better offer. It sure didn't work at UA, now did it? Which is exactly why I think most DL pilots will demonstrate more intelligence than what has been exhibited in Chicago.

[post="189589"][/post]​

So by your logic - which I largely agree with: labor should agree to concessions outside of BK court because it will only get worse inside - your pilots should have already struck a deal. Also by your logic - US pilots should have put their deal out for a vote pre ch11.

Your logic, my logic won't convince labor to strike a deal that is deep enough to avoid ch11. It's sure not working at Delta now is it? How does this demonstrate more intelligence in Atlanta?

 

[Fly]

Because he said so.....lol That's how it works in his mind......everyone is unintelligent except the fine folks at Delta and American.

As for the pilot mentality....YES, the judge usually agrees with the company. That is precisely why they are holding out on paycuts now. They realize that there will probably be a bk in their future. If they take the cuts, the company can still file and ask the judge to give them another cut....they aren't willing to do that. No judge is going to give them a 50% cut, no way. But if they take 30% now, who's to say the company won't ask the judge for another 30%?

 

[Tim47SIP]

If you honestly think that a Judge wont give 50%, then you are terribly mistaken. The Judge will most likely bring the Delta Mainline pay to industry average to include work rules and possibly pensions. 35% will still leave Mainline the highest paid pilots on the planet which is why I think BK is managements only option. They are right at 49% higher than the next group and 67% higher than industry average, so 45% - 55% does not seem to outlandish. What ever the reduction is, it will be painfull at the least. I hope they (mainline) can some how come out of this in somewhat good shape.

 

[mistified]

If you honestly think that a Judge wont give 50%, then you are terribly mistaken. The Judge will most likely bring the Delta Mainline pay to industry average to include work rules and possibly pensions. 35% will still leave Mainline the highest paid pilots on the planet which is why I think BK is managements only option. They are right at 49% higher than the next group and 67% higher than industry average, so 45% - 55% does not seem to outlandish. What ever the reduction is, it will be painfull at the least. I hope they (mainline) can some how come out of this in somewhat good shape.

[post="189634"][/post]​

A 35% reduction WILL NOT still leave the Mainline the highest paid pilots on the planet. This is real simple algebra Tim47SIP:

X% increase of Y IS NOT the same of X% reduction of that same result result.

Example: a 35% reduction of DAL wages would put them in line with AA pilots.
Or a 53.8% increase of wagaes for the AA pilots would put them in line with DAL pilots.

Since AA pilots are not the highest paid on the planet,
if DAL pilots took a 35% pay hit they WOULD NOT be the highest paid on the planet.

Next misconception please!

 

[Tim47SIP]

Sorry Misty

Example: a 35% reduction of DAL wages would put them in line with AA pilots.
Or a 53.8% increase of wages for the AA pilots would put them in line with DAL pilots.

You do have me there. I did not know that raising pay to a certain level is much more than decreasing pay to a certain level. I must admit I have no clue how this works, so I do apologize. So if you could, please explain how this works. I would appreciate the help. Thanks. Tim.

 

[robbedagain]

I can answer that......according to my very, very reliable resource (he flys for Delta)....they don't trust the company. They believe that if they take the cut, the company is going to enter BK anyway, and then take another cut. They are willing to take their chances with the judge (and one paycut, not two)

[post="189544"][/post]​

i am not so sure as to whether or not i would trust the judge because if or when dal files ch11 they will be at the mercy of a judge who could do a lot worse than what the company wants or better than what the employees expected. just go ask a few usair pilots and other employees we are on round three of paycuts twice in ch11 the first time and now back for the 3rd in the 2nd ch11.

 

[mistified]

Sorry Misty

Example: a 35% reduction of DAL wages would put them in line with AA pilots.
Or a 53.8% increase of wages for the AA pilots would put them in line with DAL pilots.

You do have me there. I did not know that raising pay to a certain level is much more than decreasing pay to a certain level. I must admit I have no clue how this works, so I do apologize. So if you could, please explain how this works. I would appreciate the help. Thanks. Tim.

[post="189761"][/post]​

$235 - .35($235) = $152.75 this example is a 35% pay reduction

$152.75 + .538($152.75) = $235 this example is a 53.8% pay increase

Is this what you wanted me to explain?

 

[WorldTraveler]

The simple reason why DL pilots haven't been forced to play intelligently is because the company hasn't defined a specific timeframe in which they will file bankruptcy without a deal. We all know that no one in this business (debtors or labor) have moved without a very real gun at their head. There will be a day coming within in the next couple weeks when Delta will tell labor and their creditors that they need all deals finalized and in their hands by X time on Y date or they will file. THEN, you will see labor and the creditors jumping for dry land faster than a bunch of rats off a sinking ship.

Oh, and have you watched oil continuing to surge PAST $50 BBL, making a DL case that even a 35% cut is dated and no longer adequate? As we have seen time and time again sep. at UA and US, it only gets worse the longer you wait to play.

 

[flyhigh]

World-

Both ALPA and major creditors have been told of when Delta would need to file. Part of the problem is that there are various scenarios. Specifically, jerry mentioned that the lack of a retirement deal would force the company to file...a deal came at the 11.9th hour. It seems DALPA just wants to do what UAALPA did...not kill the goose, but wring its neck until it is gasping and then twist a little bit more...

 

[WNrforlife]

Tick-Tock, Tick-Tock. The clock tolls for thee......................

 

[Winglet]

SW pilots make a lot more than AA pilots ---

SW 12 yr Capt w/profit sharing - $200 hr
AA 12 yr Captain - $156

SW 7 yr FO w/ave 10% profit sharing - $125
AA 7 yr FO - $104

Of course AA has a A & B fund, but don't expect those to last much longer. The airline managments aren't talking SW comparibility now, there talking JetBlew. Pretty soon it'll be Spirit as what they say is the "industry standard." After that, I suppose Great Lakes or Mesa.

 

[AA80Driver]

SW pilots make a lot more than AA pilots ---

SW 12 yr Capt w/profit sharing - $200 hr
AA 12 yr Captain - $156

SW 7 yr FO w/ave 10% profit sharing - $125
AA 7 yr FO - $104

Of course AA has a A & B fund, but don't expect those to last much longer. The airline managments aren't talking SW comparibility now, there talking JetBlew. Pretty soon it'll be Spirit as what they say is the "industry standard." After that, I suppose Great Lakes or Mesa.

[post="189943"][/post]​

Minor correction AA 7 yr FO on 737-800 is 96/hr. I don't expect the A fund (defined benefit) to be around much longer, but the B Fund is a different animal (defined contribution) and much easier to manage.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Yes, you're right flyhigh. DALPA is clearly trying to get everything it can but the point still remains that DALPA will be solely responsible if DL is forced into bankruptcy because DALPA would not sign a deal AND the pilots still have to give FAR, FAR more in bankruptcy.

Wouldn't it be a DAMNING indictment if DL is forced into bankruptcy after UA and US while AA, whose pilots are not represented by ALPA, managed to make a turnaround outside of bankruptcy. If DL heads to BK to get the cuts from the pilots it needs (and which are absolutely essential before any other stakeholder will help Delta - which they will), the AFL-CIO will have the distinct honor of driving three companies in one industry into bankruptcy because they refuse to work with management. Who gives a rip that DL's ALPA head wants a top ALPA leadership spot if the union gets fingered for sending three airlines to their graves?