Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Beancounter]

Thanks FA, right back at ya. I thought I already said I'm an 04' hire, guess not, there it is. I was holding a line prior to the merger and got knocked to reserve after. I'm not looking to upgrade on anybody's widebodies, I'd just like to have back what I had prior to the first merger (in more ways than one). Like I've said before, I don't think the NIC was fair, but DOH isn't any better. I would expect to be towards the bottom of any list, but to place AWA's senior captains below east US FOs I can't agree with. Oh, the little one stopped barfing and the big one started. Hopefully I'm not next. Have a good night.

Bean

P.S. To my knowledge DC is not a west pilot. I've heard east pilots talk like him on the jumpseat before, it is possible he's east.

Now after being told to STFU on the AWAPA web board because of my posting on here I better clarify a few things:

1. I don’t support DOH
2. I don’t think the lower end of the NIC was fair and I don’t think the most senior AWA captain should have been placed 500 down. If you want to say it balances out and ends up being fair, then so be it.

Bean

 

[dca319]

.Don't play poker if you don't know your hand.

I choose a different path for my family.

Two of the better sentences posted here in a long time.

 

[machflyer]

dca...that's exactly what the company wants the NAC to think. Don't you get it? Negotiations 101.
Tempe wants this in a BAD way...no way do they not still have wiggle room. Bullshit.

greeter...aw' never mind...you're a lost cause. But, I'll stay tuned for any more cliches you've got.

 

[Metroyet]

We paid dearly with LOA 93, and the only ace up our sleve is the CoC.
It's worth more than what the NAC is bringing to us in the form of an MOU.
Re-read the MOU. The veribage is very clear, very clear. They know that it's a well worded clause and they can't get out of it unless we waive it.
The company was smart and held hostages knowing that it may come down to this...E190 and Westies.
They can't and should not be sacrafical lambs.
First blush is to send the MOU back and get more lump sum...for everyone. Say $100M+

You suffered on loa93 BY CHOICE. Your problem...nobody cares.

 

[PullUp]

Isn't that what we did when we kept walking away from the company's LOA93 offer only to come back to something worse every time? The NAC made it clear that if we vote no it's status quo until the merger is complete.

It is extremely clear to me that the company and UCC want and NEED the CoC to disappear. A no vote, contrary to what they say, will bring them back to the table.
They want it bad - make 'em pay for it. This is our last opportunity.
Cheers.

 

[PullUp]

You suffered on loa93 BY CHOICE. Your problem...nobody cares.

You ungrateful SOB. This person is willing to give up a substantial sum of money so that YOU too can have more.
I'm speechless at your attitude.

 

[dca319]

dca...that's exactly what the company wants the NAC to think. Don't you get it? Negotiations 101.
Tempe wants this in a BAD way...no way do they not still have wiggle room. Bullshit.

greeter...aw' never mind...you're a lost cause. But, I'll stay tuned for any more cliches you've got.

We negotiated our way into a much worse LOA 93 than the original offer the company put out.. Why? Because we thought we were so much smarter than the company we overreached. You're doing the same thing here. If I had to choose between your strategy and that of what the NAC is telling us, I'm going with the NAC. I'm not risking the overreach and then sitting status quo for the next two years. No thanks. This is a ton of money and we'll only be on the MOU for two years or so. Then a new contract which makes this MOU moot.

 

[machflyer]

MJ...maybe we should hold out for the CoC...and let the Group 2 and higher Easties reap the cash for 15+ months...now your problem, nobody cares.

 

[dca319]

It is extremely clear to me that the company and UCC want and NEED the CoC to disappear. A no vote, contrary to what they say, will bring them back to the table.
They want it bad - make 'em pay for it. This is our last opportunity.
Cheers.

You 100% sure about that? What if they don't? We'll file a grievance and win? I'd like to see Mach's numbers that contradict the NAC's numbers.

 

[machflyer]

The NAC is bringing you nothing but..."ok, this is what will happen if"..."and this is what will happen if"...
Those are numbers anyone can crunch.
I love their luke-warm comment..."we'll probably file a grievance"...
Damn straight you will, and an expedited one at that.

dca...here are my numbers: MBA, Negotiations and Conflict Management, cum laude. Earned via distant learning, while defending your ass in OEF/OIF.
This situation reads like a case study...you'all, including the NAC, are being sucked right into giving up the golden key. You can read the tea leaves a mile away.

 

[USA320Pilot]

USAPA Negotiating Advistory Committee Update (Change of Control): January 27, 2013

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]This update addresses the Change of Control (COC) provision of the US Airways East/LOA 93 contract –and specifically how it compares economically to the proposed MOU approved by the Board of Pilot Representatives.[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]The COC provision was designed to ensure that US Airways management deals with your union concerning major transactions such as the potential merger with American Airlines. While COC applies to some US Airways East Pilots, we were able to use it to negotiate an MOU with significant economic gains for all US Airways pilots. [/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Our cost estimates show that the economic values received by all US Airways pilots from the MOU exceed what only some would receive from a successfully executed grievance triggered by a Change of Control.[/background]

• If the MOU is ratified and the merger is approved, all US Airways pilots will begin receiving the new MOU pay rates as of the date of the POR (estimated to be July 1, 2013) and an increase in pension contributions to 14%. In addition, all US Airways pilots will receive the new MOU pay rates retrospectively back to the date of ratification (February 8). On January 1, 2014, the pay rates increase by 8% and the pension contribution increases to 16%. All US Airways pilots will also share a $40 million lump sum payment. The MOU establishes all pilots as equal for compensation and working conditions at the POR, which will allow for the best outcome for seniority integration.
• If the MOU is NOT ratified and the merger moves forward, USAPA would most probably file a grievance for the COC Scope provisions in our contract. If successful with the COC grievance, only some US Airways pilots would accrue snap back wages as of the date of the POR, since the COC provision does not apply to E-190 Pilots or West Pilots.

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]If this were to happen, and if USAPA is successful in pursuing a COC grievance, then the snap back wages would most likely continue until the new representative of the combined pilot group (probably APA) negotiates a Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement (JCBA). At that time all US Airways pilots would most likely be removed from the snap back wages and provided with the same wages of the APA pilots. Barring a significant change in the industry that would support continuing the COC, those wages would be the wages currently being provided to all US Airways pilots by ratifying the MOU.[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]According to USAPA’s Merger Counsel, arriving at a seniority integration process with disparity in wage rates may negatively impact the outcome for US Airways pilots.[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]MOU Timeline[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]The MOU indicates that the JCBA would be concluded 13-15 months after the POR date:[/background]

• 4 months for a single carrier petition to be filed with the NMB
• 6-8 months for the NMB to issue a decision,
• 30 days to negotiate the JCBA
• 60 days to resolve any disputes in arbitration.

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Note:[/background]

• The COC rates would ONLY apply to EAST Group 2 pilots and above.
• EAST E-190 pilots and West Pilots would NOT be included in any COC snap back wages.

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]This table represents the impact of Wage and DC to the JCBA – Calculated @ POR + 18 Months[/background]
All Pilots (East and West)

MOU

COC

2013
$665,498,135

$613,887,275

2014
$ 718,948,037

$747,439,632

TOTALS
$1,384,446,172

$1,361,326,907


[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Example: Group 2 Crew (East and West) at 85 hrs. Pay + DC over the 18 months (POR+18 months). This uses Group 2 A-320 crews for comparison based on the majority of our fleet and block hours, and the ability to depict both East and West flying.[/background]
A-320 CREW
MOU

COC


Captain

First Officer

Captain

First Officer

EAST
$419,681

$284,909

$499,766

$333,254

WEST
$436,760

$299,719

$354,059

$234,029

TOTALS
$856,441

$584,628

$853,825

$567,283

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]

[/background]​

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]We will complete the roadshow schedule this week in Philadelphia at the airport Marriott, with the following presentation start times:[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Monday, January 28[sup]th[/sup] - 10 AM, 1 PM and 4PM[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Tuesday, January 29[sup]th[/sup] - 9 AM and 1 PM[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]The presentation will take about an hour and a half followed by a question and answer period. We have received a number of great questions at each domicile visited. Pleaseclick hereto review these questions on the USAPA website. We will frequently update this question bank, so be sure and check back periodically.[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]We look forward to seeing you at the PHL road shows.[/background]

 

[dca319]

The NAC is bringing you nothing but..."ok, this is what will happen if"..."and this is what will happen if"...
Those are numbers anyone can crunch.

So lets see your numbers. That way I can compare them to what the NAC put out.

I love their luke-warm comment..."we'll probably file a grievance"...

It was meant to be sarcastic as our history with winning slam dunk grievances is not too good.

Damn straight you will, and an expedited one at that.

By "expedited" do you mean two years instead of three?

dca...here are my numbers: MBA, Negotiations and Conflict Management, cum laude. Earned via distant learning, while defending your ass in OEF/OIF.

Those aren't numbers. You've listed a degree, a focus, and two military operations.

This situation reads like a case study...you'all, including the NAC, are being sucked right into giving up the golden key. You can read the tea leaves a mile away.

What did LOA 93 read like before we screwed that up?

 

[cleardirect]

Sorry Mark, wouldn't send you a thing if I had , your the enemy.

This is getting good. East on east violence.

So anyone that disagrees with you is your enemy.

Is there any wonder why east pilots have been fighting for 30 years? Civil debate is lost. Straight to hate and enemies. If you are not with me you are against me.

The AA boys are going t eat you east pilots alive. Look what the small group of west pilots did with little resources. 9000 well funded and organized APA pilots will have east pilots clean the lavs not flying airplanes.

ALPA had nothing to do with your failures.

 

[cleardirect]

We paid dearly with LOA 93, and the only ace up our sleve is the CoC.
It's worth more than what the NAC is bringing to us in the form of an MOU.
Re-read the MOU. The veribage is very clear, very clear. They know that it's a well worded clause and they can't get out of it unless we waive it.
The company was smart and held hostages knowing that it may come down to this...E190 and Westies.
They can't and should not be sacrafical lambs.
First blush is to send the MOU back and get more lump sum...for everyone. Say $100M+

So you think you know more than the guys on the NAC with access to all of the data? That the NAC, the pro negotiator and the lawyers are telling you this is what CoC is worth but you know better.

ARROGANCE!

CoC is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Parker and the NAC found the price.

Don't you understand that there is no one else to negotiate with. Sending it back is not going to get any more. I would think that east pilots more than anyone would understand bad positions and can happen when you over reach. But I guess that only happen with intelligent people. Stupid don't learn from their mistakes.

 

[Metroyet]

You ungrateful SOB. This person is willing to give up a substantial sum of money so that YOU too can have more.
I'm speechless at your attitude.

Oh yes. Where are my manners?! This East pilots altruism for his West brothers really is awe inspiring...even though I am not one of them. Never mind the fact that he was...without question...on LOA93 for several years longer than he had to because of the stupid USAPA choice. Why? because of his insistance he steal from the West what HE THOUGHT he was owed depite the fact he was unable to negotiate, mediate, or arbitrate to his ridiculous expectations...why noy just try to steal what you cant get any oyher way? Nice. The OTHER way to look at it is his type is sprung loaded to make the wrong decisions costing himself and EVERYBODY ELSE tons more money they can ill afford to lose. USAPA delivered a Billion+ dollars of savings to Parker on a Silver platter. If I was a us air pilot I'd say that was enough...not emotionally charged Eastholes, they'd rather martyr themselves to the end just so they can stay broke, bitter and angry. These idiots are beyond repair and can't get out of their own way.