Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

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Yes. We all want to know what Pat is going to propose since he won't say. It's about the lawyers again and not the pilots. Why do you think workers are deserting unions in droves?

Bromka, Hoffa, Moak and Hummel are four main reasons that come to mind.

By the way, for every action there is an equal an opposite reaction, so be mindful of the rebound from that B$$$H slap!

The west has been slapped for 8 years. It is the east that is finally going to get what you deserve.

Funny you mention Hoffa. PS used to work for Hoffa. Does that tell you anything?
 
Yeah, funny how that works.

Yeah, dangle bright shiny brochures with big bold pay rates and everyone assumes they are included, and the fine print and ambiguities don't apply to them.

Once again we are being asked to give clear unambiguous concessions in order to get uncertain improvements that only last until the JCBA anyway. Once we get to negotiations for the JCBA we will once again be given the opportunity to receive more shiny trinkets wrapped in ambiguous grievance fraught language, in exchange for clear relinquishment of more promises we had and never received but were in the grievance channel.

If we don't vote for concessions now, we won't be able to participate in the JCBA negotiations... really? Parker just wants an MOU ratified by us because he wants us to share in the merger spoils with him, not because he can't get the UCC to vote for his plan sans a ratified MOU? (I know it will pass, and in a few years the ones who voted yes will blaming the hard liners for it just like they do for LOA 93).

What if Parker really can get to a JCBA without us (though there is no way he can), and APA would do all the negotiations? APA negotiating for all pilots (aside from SLI) is a bad thing, how? :lol:
 
It doesn't really matter if someone voted the second the polls opened and had not read any of the material. It's not like civil elections where once cast, your vote is "in stone." As more and more info and analysis comes in, this fence sitter has already changed the vote once, and will likely go back to my original vote as I begin to see that CoC, even it an ideal situation where the company doesn't challenge it, will likely be a wash financially. And, if they challenge CoC, the gamble is then huge that we would prevail.

I still have real problems with the the vague language. Obviously the APA does not know Team Tempe the way we do. Then again, I don't know Horton et al. the way they do. But they have already accepted such language; someone needs to point out our miles-long grievance list to them and let them know exactly why it got that long. Maybe we can get them to "see the light" before they move on to a JCBA where the APA will clearly be in control of the process.
The main reason there is a mile long grievance list. East pilots, usapa and Tracy Parrella.
 
You're just joking for effect here...umm...aren't you? Merely the Magna Carta? Why stop there? How about the Constitution of the United States? Wow!....This MOU must be something really grand indeed!

I'll need to refresh my history of England, but wasn't the Magna Carta another version of Parity+1%? Didn't the English monarch at the time (John) renege before the ink was dry and much bloodshed ensued?
 
Well, that would be quite a bit of backpedaling on his part. He consistently comes to Crew Meetings saying that US can survive quite easily as a standalone carrier. There is always the caveat that as a standalone, US can never pay what UAL and DAL pay because those carriers have a huge revenue advantage due to size.

But, there is no question that he would probably do exactly as you describe now that this deal is so close that he can task the either the power, or the money, or both. His "standalone show," I think, was always a save-face maneuver in light of being rebuffed by DAL and UAL.

Before the Us Airways merger Parker used to come to the crew news and tell us that we were fine stand alone and we had plenty of money to make it through.

After the merger and the west started pointing out that he was handing all the benefits of the merger to the west was when he started telling the story that the west would have been BK.

All a cover story for you east pilots to point to. To keep you east pilots fighting against a contract and saving Parker tons of cash.
 
It's called: "Manifest Destiny!" How could AA and US NOT merge? ;-)

As far as the courts, it will be nice to get out of that quagmire. The MOU (speaking of listS to be submitted by the east), I think, will give both east and west some of what they want as far as SLI. The east will get the do-over they have wanted, and it will be done with a list that is correct and looks very different than the snapshot that gave birth to the Nicolau abortion. The west will end up with the slotting they so dearly covet, and effectively get "Nic Two." That will piss off both the east and AA pilots who will end up with "junior" west pilots getting placed in front of them. But in the case of the east, the list will be a damned sight better than Nic One.
The USAPA C&B specifically state DOH w/conditions and restrictions. That ship has sailed and is the USAPA position or they will find themselves in a constitutional violation and lawsuit. Several of us have already been planning for that. Pat's wishy-washy answers give all of us pause.

Its McCaskill-Bond integration method between APA and USAPA if they cant come to an agreement. That's where ratio or slotting MAY take place, the question becomes whom gets ratio/slotted above whom, or even Longevity could be the standard of the day. What arguments are to be made by either side. That is the great unknown.
 
Before the Us Airways merger Parker used to come to the crew news and tell us that we were fine stand alone and we had plenty of money to make it through.

After the merger and the west started pointing out that he was handing all the benefits of the merger to the west was when he started telling the story that the west would have been BK.

All a cover story for you east pilots to point to. To keep you east pilots fighting against a contract and saving Parker tons of cash.
I've only seen the crew news after the merger, not before. Did you guys have crew news before the merger and if so, do you have any of them to share?
 
Yeah, dangle bright shiny brochures with big bold pay rates and everyone assumes they are included, and the fine print and ambiguities don't apply to them.

Once again we are being asked to give clear unambiguous concessions in order to get uncertain improvements that only last until the JCBA anyway. Once we get to negotiations for the JCBA we will once again be given the opportunity to receive more shiny trinkets wrapped in ambiguous grievance fraught language, in exchange for clear relinquishment of more promises we had and never received but were in the grievance channel.

If we don't vote for concessions now, we won't be able to participate in the JCBA negotiations... really? Parker just wants an MOU ratified by us because he wants us to share in the merger spoils with him, not because he can't get the UCC to vote for his plan sans a ratified MOU? (I know it will pass, and in a few years the ones who voted yes will blaming the hard liners for it just like they do for LOA 93).

What if Parker really can get to a JCBA without us (though there is no way he can), and APA would do all the negotiations? APA negotiating for all pilots (aside from SLI) is a bad thing, how? :lol:

So in the world of east pilots. The APA is BK but their 2012 and this MOU is good enough for them. Even though the had higher wages and a better contract than the east.

But C2012 and the MOU is NOT good enough for east pilots that are going to be getting the largest percentage increase and much better work rules than the other two groups.

That somehow east pilots deserve to be made whole and paid back for all of your stupid mistakes but the west or APA this contract is good enough.

Arrogance, self importance at it's finest.

Is there any doubt why you east pilots are the lowest paid most laughed at pilot group?
 
The USAPA C&B specifically state DOH w/conditions and restrictions. That ship has sailed and is the USAPA position or they will find themselves in a constitutional violation and lawsuit. Several of us have already been planning for that. Pat's wishy-washy answers give all of us pause.

Its McCaskill-Bond integration method between APA and USAPA if they cant come to an agreement. That's where ratio or slotting MAY take place, the question becomes whom gets ratio/slotted above whom, or even Longevity could be the standard of the day. What arguments are to be made by either side. That is the great unknown.

I do agree that it is a great unknown. APA is not going to go along with DOH, and USAPA is obligated by its own C&B-Ls to stick to that (as you point out.) So, it is doubtful that there will be a negotiated list. USAPA can go to the McC-B board with DOH, and then sit down and keep their mouths shut (because there is not much else they can say and remain within their own rules.) The arbitrators will say DOH is a non-starter (as did Nicolau) and will proceed with slotting. We can only hope it is better than Nic (very likely, IMHO) and the C&Rs are manageable, fair and lengthy (unlikely.) It is unlikely that the arbitration panel will recognize the current separation of the US east and west, and they will probably have no restrictions in place for us East vs. west, i.e. all bases and equipment on the US east and west will open up for bidding by all former east and west pilots. The panel will likely place restrictions at the company behest to wait until 2014 and the PBS system is in place, but the fences (if any) will only keep the AA pilots from the US pilots, and vice versa.
 
I've only seen the crew news after the merger, not before. Did you guys have crew news before the merger and if so, do you have any of them to share?
Boy, Parker has been doing crew news since 2001. He has said a lot of things and made a lot of promises. Before the merger he used to be honest and you could count on what he said. After the merger the lies got bigger and bolder.

One of the reasons the west confronts Parker is because he and we know he is lying. He hates to be called out on his lies and he hates when you question his integrity. He hates to be the bad guy. Thus the reason for his lack of balls in just telling the east it is the Nicolau list.

Parker used to tell us that we were fine stand alone. Go back and watch the videos. He did not start saying the west would go BK until we started demanding our fair share of the merger.

Why Parker furloughed 10% of the west but only 5% of the east. Why the west took 85% of the block hour violation. Why ALL the 190's have gone to the east yet the west should be flying 1/3 of those. Why the east flt. ops changed the ACARS to benefit the east and harm the west.

Every time we point out the unfair treatment Parker tells you that the west was going BK and we are just lucky to have a job. But when he tells you that Us Airways would liquidate you don't believe him. Well if us airways liquidated ALL of you would have been out of a job 100% not the 30% he threatened the west with.

So you got 100% of your jobs and ALL the benefits, the west maybe saved 30% of the jobs and ZERO benefits.

Listen to what Parker has to say when he hands the american pilots all the benefits of this merger just because they are the majority and have the two most profitable hubs ORD and DFW.

Remember what Parker said? If only he had ORD and DFW he could make money. Well he used to tell us that if only he had east coast hubs he could pay us like other airlines.

Parker is a liar and will tell you anything so he does not have to pay. You east pilots are about to find out how the minority is treated and you will not have east pilots in the flight op department to protect you anymore. Flying will be moved to benefit the majority.

Eight years of this crap. Like I said Karma is a #### and she is coming for the east.
 
I do agree that it is a great unknown. APA is not going to go along with DOH, and USAPA is obligated by its own C&B-Ls to stick to that (as you point out.) So, it is doubtful that there will be a negotiated list. USAPA can go to the McC-B board with DOH, and then sit down and keep their mouths shut (because there is not much else they can say and remain within their own rules.) The arbitrators will say DOH is a non-starter (as did Nicolau) and will proceed with slotting. We can only hope it is better than Nic (very likely, IMHO) and the C&Rs are manageable, fair and lengthy (unlikely.) It is unlikely that the arbitration panel will recognize the current separation of the US east and west, and they will probably have no restrictions in place for us East vs. west, i.e. all bases and equipment on the US east and west will open up for bidding by all former east and west pilots. The panel will likely place restrictions at the company behest to wait until 2014 and the PBS system is in place, but the fences (if any) will only keep the AA pilots from the US pilots, and vice versa.

I have to agree with most of your comments.

The major obstruction will be the Nicolau. It is the accepted arbitrated list. There is nothing that has voided that list and judge Silver said usapa or APA has to have a LUP not to use it.

The last eight years don't just disappear like they never happened.
 
I think most posters here are not following the logic of voting 'no'.
Voting no will utimately trigger the CoC clause, but the resulting payrates are not the focus.
It is the resultant legal snafu that will probably occur.
The entities that want this deal 'done' do not want a long court battle, they want a smooth transition.
To that end, I believe a 'no' vote will drive them back to the table.
Guys, what did the NW pilots get to garner their cooperation in the Delta merge?
What incentives did the Continental pilots get? How about Airtran guys?
Doug owes us for 7 years of non-parity, substandard wages and benefits. If he wants this deal, HE needs to sweeten the pot.
I don't believe the doomsday scenario the union guys are touting. As others have noted here, the road show was a fine sales job focused on the money, which we all know can be 'gone' in a heartbeat.
Cheers.
 
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