Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[EastUS1]

However, we are forced to respond because these emails contain factual errors and falsehoods. Specifically, the PIC email incorrectly contends that your officers have been “throwing roadblock after roadblock in front of” the PIC’s work. Nothing can be further from the truth. In reality, your Officers and the BPR have supported the PIC’s work despite the enormous cost of the PIC’s investigation.

For any poker players here: What sort of "Tell" on this wholesale BS do you immediately read from: "...despite the enormous cost of the PIC’s investigation." ? Those honestly supportive of any endeavor rarely see even the slightest need to note any "enormous cost"...just sayin'. Why even mention any cost at all, much less color it with "enormous cost", if one is truly a sincere supporter of the effort?

My BS meter's now pegged here.

 

[Black Swan]

Do I have this right here? Whenever seeking a better contract; it should follow as "inevitable" that medical coverage costs would become not lower, nor even remain at existing rates, but soar higher?...As in; become a much worse situation than before? "inevitable"? Seriously..? Wow! What kind of complete nitwit actually "thinks" like that? Small wonder the concession stand was so readily available for so long...Geez!

These are the guys who carried the company water for the LOA 93 vote. The same crowd that said the company needed all the RJ s for feed. Now the RJ's pretty much run the routes we did. They sure did "feed" Sounds exactly like Chip Munn and his arguments. These same people always make justifications for the company take, yet fail to help their fellow pilots on issues such as DC contributions, wages, and vacations. Get ready for more whining when this MOU becomes LOA 94, and the same people start complaining that they "didn't know THAT was what they meant!" BOHICA

 

[cleardirect]

Yea thanks, we use to get 44, bring us down again.

Use to being the key phrase.

It does not matter what you use to have.

 

[cleardirect]

I wouldn't trust anything these officers put out.

Hate

Whaaaaaaaaat???????

The officers of that fantastic organization the east pilots got to build from the ground up. Now you don't trust the very leaders that you put in to do the job.

Shocking!

But I thought it was ALPA's fault not east pilots.

 

[EastUS1]

These are the guys who carried the company water for the LOA 93 vote. The same crowd that said the company needed all the RJ s for feed. Now the RJ's pretty much run the routes we did. They sure did "feed" Sounds exactly like Chip Munn and his arguments. These same people always make justifications for the company take, yet fail to help their fellow pilots on issues such as DC contributions, wages, and vacations. Get ready for more whining when this MOU becomes LOA 94, and the same people start complaining that they "didn't know THAT was what they meant!" BOHICA

My nostrils have been filled lately with that sadly familiar stench as well. It permeates the entire recall attempt.

 

[Phoenix]

For any poker players here: What sort of "Tell" on this wholesale BS do you immediately read from: "...despite the enormous cost of the PIC’s investigation." ? Those honestly supportive of any endeavor rarely see even the slightest need to note any "enormous cost"...just sayin'. Why even mention any cost at all, much less color it with "enormous cost", if one is truly a sincere supporter of the effort?

My BS meter's now pegged here.

The problem is the PIC has not published a shiny sales brochure. Big mistake.

 

[EastUS1]

Recall...No.
MOU...No.

Agreed here...ever more so with each passing day.

 

[EastUS1]

The problem is the PIC has not published a shiny sales brochure. Big mistake.

Indeed.

 

[Phoenix]

I wouldn't trust anything these officers put out.

Hate

Before ALPA got tossed the national officers tried to suppress info that favored their political opponents and meddled in domicile representation, using their official capacity. One would think most people would have watched and learned.

 

[Zone5]

Do I have this right here? Whenever seeking a better contract; it should follow as "inevitable" that medical coverage costs would become not lower, nor even remain at existing rates, but soar higher?...As in; become a much worse situation than before? "inevitable"? Seriously..? Wow! What kind of complete nitwit actually "thinks" like that? Small wonder the concession stand was so readily available for so long...Geez!

It really is amazing how readily some folks "assume the position"! I guess once you get used to being "bent over" it must start to be "no big deal".

In the "fine print" department, I noticed that the MOU LTD changes are kind of a "mixed bag", while the coverage is raised to 60% from 50%, the company will stop contributing the current 10% to the DBP, which they currently do. Kind of a wash, but gets to be a bigger deal when the DBP contribution goes to 14% and then 16%. At least we don't have to pay the $1,200/yr towards the coverage like we have been and they no longer steal your PBGC and or any Military Retirement from you as a offset!


seajay

 

[end_of_alpa]

In thought we get the new pay rates as soon as we vote in the MOU, do we not?
So that means you're wrong in that a POR triggers the MOU - it doesn't.

We DO NOT get the new pay rates on the vote. But first, lets agree on one
thing, let's limit our discussion to the MOU and the USAPA Flight Plan (FP) to a
Merger.

Read page 4 of FP. It states:
"US Airways pilots will "VOTE" to determine final approval of the MOU.
PENDING approval of the MOU, USAPA and AA will work together to convert the MOU
and specified provisions (?) of the APA 2012 CBA into a Merger Transition
Agreement (MTA), which will serve as the "interim contract for the pilots of US
Airways and American Airlines" from the EFFECTIVE DATE UNTIL FINAL JCBA.
IF APPROVAL (February 8, 2013) then:
"Upon bankruptcy court approval of a POR to "merge US Airways and American
Airlines", the merger will begin to be finalized. The date of approval of the
POR WILL BE KNOWN AS THE EFFECTIVE DATE OF THE MERGER. ON THIS DATE (ED):
MOU = MTA.
3. Beginning on the effective date of the POR (the “Effective Date&rdquo, pilots
employed by US Airways shall be paid in accordance with the provisions of the
MTA that are generally applicable to pilots employed by New American Airlines.

In short, MOU (February 8) + ED = MTA

Also, read paragraph 18(c.) and (d.) which states:

"For purposes of clarity, this Memorandum shall be null and void in its entirety and as to all Parties if the Merger is not consummated."

"This Memorandum will only apply to this Merger, and will apply to this Merger regardless of its corporate structure. This Memorandum shall not affect or have any applicability to American's stand-alone plan or any merger or transaction other than this Merger."

Secondly, per Szymanski, there will be three lists because on our side we
currently operate ith two lists. Take the west guys who went east and are on the
bottom. Your guess means they're put under new hires does it not? So stop
making these invalid points as they're completely wrong. USAPA will submit two
lists and then submit an integration method based on those two lists and APAs
list.

This is a problem for Pat because too many people either misinterpreted what he said OR he may be saying it wrong. Unfortunately he seems to be being quoted incorrectly and it needs to be put down in writing.
Having said that, I NEVER said I was "guessing" at West furloughs junior to East new hires. What I have been saying is that my "guess" would be at the end of ED + 30, APA and USAPA got together with the companies (US/AA) data to verify and establish employment data. It certainly would include name, pay number, hire date, furlough and recall date, if any, longevity establishment, etc. They probably would establish an adjusted longevity date for those furloughed and recalled and maybe even credit (I would hope) TWA pilots furloughed at AA but hired at US and credit them for that time towards their time here. That is one part of the "protocal" called for in the MOU.

But I NEVER said nor implied what YOU are saying.

As far as "two" lists here there is only one and that is the list USAPA has in it's possession which is DOH. The "adjustment comes during the 60 day window or during arbitration if no success.
Read paragraph 4 again. Also read paragraph 10(d.), which states: "During the McCaskill-Bond process, including any arbitration proceeding, US Airways, American or New American Airlines, or their successors (if any), shall remain neutral regarding the order in which pilots are placed on the integrated seniority list, but such neutrality shall not prevent said carriers from insuring that the award complies with the criteria in Paragraph 10(B)(i)-(v).

Also, read paragragh 10(h.) which states: "US Airways agrees that neither this Memorandum nor the JCBA shall provide a basis for changing the seniority lists currently in effect at US Airways other than through the process set forth in this Paragraph 10.

APA/USAPA CONTROLS the process, not US AIrways.

Also, read paragraph 15, which states: "US Airways agrees that it will comply with the East and West CBAs and the Transition Agreement until the Effective Date."

As for the arbitrators. you're naive. Those guys are tight with each other and
just as on any industry, they won't undercut one of their own. And the
precedence it would send would rock the foundation of arbitration. I find it
hard to believe anyone could simply brush that off.

This is McCaskill-Bond and nothing prior to this other than what either APA-USAPA argue matters. And if it did, that would subject the arbitration to legal challenges. I am "brushing it off" because under this MOU everything is re-argued. After the ED, there is no East West, North South, transition agreement or East West contract, it will be the MTA.

 

[luvthe9]

The PIC email violated these rules to the extent it gives the impression that the PIC was advancing views regarding the recall in its role as an official USAPA Committee.

Yes, since Gary's "transparency" does not exsist I'm glad these gentlemen stepped up to the plate to keep us informed, ALPO all over again.

 

[luvthe9]

Use to being the key phrase.

It does not matter what you use to have.

Yes, just like you "use" to think you had the NIC, use being the key phrase.

 

[A320 Driver]

I am concerned for the East, I'm voting to get us a pay raise, you're voting to keep of on LOA 93 another year.

Or TWO.

 

[luvthe9]

!

But I thought it was ALPA's fault not east pilots.

Hey we changed unions not the pliot group. Get it.