Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Monkee]

"If I were you I'd just vote yes and kiss Parker's feet for the generosity."

You've obviously not even the slightest concept of what your postings generally demonstrate about your own character, do you?

Character? Coming from someone who recently had a drunken, manic breakdown on this website and claimed that those that he opposed performed oral sex on stray dogs?

Keep pushing that great USAPA "character", but to everyone else here you have become a character (a foolish, ignorant clown)

Go away

 

[mrbreeze]

But the difference between our list and the Nicolau list is that Nicolau was accepted by the company to represent both our pilot groups.

Wrong.....The NIC was accepted by Parker while ALPA was on the property.

After USAPA was voted in, and the DOH list was presented, Parker, seeing the legal implications, called a time out, as far as accepting the USAPA list. Since then, we have been tied up in the court system.

If you build your dreams on the premise that the NIC is the only accepted list, you're pissin' into the wind......because it's not the whole story.
breeze

 

[mrbreeze]

Lots of questions and bad info about the MOU circulating. You owe it to yourselves and your families to attend a road show and ask questions
I attended the CLT meeting this afternoon and had a lot more clarity coming out than when I went in.
Some folks are upset that APA folks get $100k and we get a paltry ~ $10k. That's partial payback to APA pilots for what they gave up, just like we got $35m for three years for what we gave up. Huge difference, I know, but that's what it is and if we fail to pass the MOU, we continue on LOA 93 with only a hope of gaining this MOU's gains and at a much later date.
You can ask about seniority integration but I promise you they won't say a thing because, as the lawyer said,(paraphrase) "it would be irresponsible to speculate at this point".
But I got the impression that it will be two lists going in, USAPA's and APA's. what comes out is anybody's guess. The signing of the MOU will NOT trigger the Nic.

My opinion: We have an opportunity to get some normalcy back in what's left our our careers and put the East/West mess behind us.

Back to lurking.
Fire at will.

Good info...thx, PI

breeze

 

[Claxon]

http://www.flightstats.com/go/story.do;jsessionid=B998C250A2D0296B0A7DE1E1E289BD65.web1:8009?id=1046


Delta led the majors again in December. Here's how the North American major carriers on-time arrival percentages compared:

• DL Delta Air Lines - 84.59%
  
• US US Airways - 82.94%
  
• AS Alaska Airlines - 82.94%
  
• UA United Airlines - 77.59%
  
• AA American Airlines - 75.73%
  
• WN Southwest Airlines - 74.37%
  
• B6 Jetblue Airways - 70.21%
  
• AC Air Canada - 59.90%

CLT Charlotte-Douglas International Airport took the top spot with a 85.10% on-time departure performance in December. The average on-time departure performance for the group in December was 76.03%, down 8.09 percentage points from November's 84.12%. Here is a summary of the on-time departure performance for the ten best performing large North American airports:

• CLT Charlotte, NC, US - 85.10%
  
• SLC Salt Lake City, UT, US - 83.71%
  
• MEX Mexico City, MX - 83.52%
  
• SEA Seattle, WA, US - 83.45%
  
• PDX Portland, OR, US - 82.39%
  
• MEM Memphis, TN, US - 82.31%
  
• DTW Detroit, MI, US - 82.10%
  
• DCA Washington, DC, US - 81.76%
  
• MSP Minneapolis, MN, US - 81.54%
  
• ATL Atlanta, GA, US - 81.41%

 

[Claxon]

Kudos, US Airways pilots, regarding the on time performance in December. Special kudos to the CLT pilots.

 

[mrbreeze]

http://www.flightsta...b1:8009?id=1046


Delta led the majors again in December. Here's how the North American major carriers on-time arrival percentages compared:

• DL Delta Air Lines - 84.59%
  
• US US Airways - 82.94%
  
• AS Alaska Airlines - 82.94%
  
• UA United Airlines - 77.59%
  
• AA American Airlines - 75.73%
  
• WN Southwest Airlines - 74.37%
  
• B6 Jetblue Airways - 70.21%
  
• AC Air Canada - 59.90%

CLT Charlotte-Douglas International Airport took the top spot with a 85.10% on-time departure performance in December. The average on-time departure performance for the group in December was 76.03%, down 8.09 percentage points from November's 84.12%. Here is a summary of the on-time departure performance for the ten best performing large North American airports:

• CLT Charlotte, NC, US - 85.10%
  
• SLC Salt Lake City, UT, US - 83.71%
  
• MEX Mexico City, MX - 83.52%
  
• SEA Seattle, WA, US - 83.45%
  
• PDX Portland, OR, US - 82.39%
  
• MEM Memphis, TN, US - 82.31%
  
• DTW Detroit, MI, US - 82.10%
  
• DCA Washington, DC, US - 81.76%
  
• MSP Minneapolis, MN, US - 81.54%
  
• ATL Atlanta, GA, US - 81.41%

Now wait a minute, Claxon....

Why is sunny PHX not on the list.......while these other airports suffer from ATC delays and weather complications?

I must have missed the call from AOL for a slowdown.
breeze

 

[cleardirect]

Guess no good deed goes unpunished. I guess we all will know when the details of the minutes of the closed BPR meeting are revealed. Not sure why it's going to matter anyway.

You obviously know who I am. Who are YOU?

no you won't. There are no minutes for closed meetings.

The only thing you are going to find out is who can spin better. The only thing you are going to get is opinion and spin from the reps.

You will have to ask yourself how bad do the CLT reps want to keep third jobs and what are they willing to do? Lie? Spin? Make up stories?

 

[cleardirect]

Meanwhile back at the SLI ranch, recently I've heard this idea being circulated. If a pre-nup type seniority regime is not mutually agreed to between USAPA and APA, USAPA then submits two seniority lists to be adjudicated by the M/B process. USAPA then provides funds and/or legal representation for the PHX domicile in order that they may separately and independantly pursue whatever seniority regime they deem fit - including the NIC. Thereby, USAPA fullfills its DFR obligation to the west and the west is free to pursue whatever goal under M/B which the deem appropriate. Of course, the risk for the east is that the west prevails and are granted the NIC by the M/B arbitration board. But the strategy is the risk is small and USAPA dodges the DFR bullet by paying for west attorneys.

Not possible.

You east guys have been hoping for that for years. Usapa represents the west and east pilots.

The DFR danger is real and trying to avoid it is not possible by saying you guys make your own deal.

 

[cleardirect]

USAPA won't be "dissolved" until AFTER the seniority integration process. Read page 5 of the MOU.

Effective Date is day BK judge approves POR to merge AA/US) =ED

ED + 30 days APA & USAPA seniority integration protocol complete

ED + 60 days APA & USAPA direct negotiations complete

ED + 90days , no list, APA & USAPA select arbitrator panel

Arbitrator panel + 60 days arbitration commences between APA & USAPA (but not before JCBA)

ED + 180 days ( 6 months) to ED + 24 months ISL awarded.

That is the timeline under the MOU. USAPA will NOT be dissolved under the timeline and that is a separate issue in any case. Read the MOU.

Wrong!

Guess you missed this paragraph.


26. APA shall file a single carrier petition with the NMB as soon as practicable after the Effective Date, when APA determines that the facts support the legal requirements for the filing of a petition but in no event later than four months after the Effective Date. If and when the NMB makes a single- carrier finding, the single carrier acknowledged by the NMB and the certified representative shall be governed by this Memorandum.


The APA will be the bargaining agent long before seniority is started. usapa will be gone very soon.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

Luv stupidly says: "STILL the lowest paid in the industry, good job Hummel lift the gag order on the reps!!!!!!!!NOW"

First, let me get this straight liar, you would rather be the lowest paid at LOA 93...... or Delta/UAL minus a few percentage points? And again, for those of you that follow Luv the liar, Hummel allowed a resolution, moved by the BPR, to open all talk from closed session. It failed, something you should be very familiar with.

Greeter

 

[traderjake]

How US Airways Pilot Leaders Found Their Way to Unanimously Back Merger Delay

This story has been revised to reflect additional information provided by US Airways pilots familiar with their union’s internal negotiations.

http://blogs.forbes.com/tedreed/

 

[EastUS1]

Character?

Umm....Character observations from a self-styled Monkee?

 

[EastUS1]

West imposter.

Agreed...Yet more of that vaunted "integrity" in action.

 

[end_of_alpa]

e-o-a

I do not believe they can legally. In a SLI arbitration with AMR it would NOT be a negotiation as was the case when negotiating with the company for a JCBA. The company is the keeper of the seniority list, not the union, and the company would be a party to a SLI arbitration under M/B. See below for the argument that the system seniority list for LCC is Nicolau until changed.

If the argument for a two list SLI with AMR is proposed, since no new integrated list was implemented via a ratified CBA, the arbitrated list (Nicolau), in my opinion would hold more weight than the union's because of process and the fear of liability of a DFR lawsuit from the west.

I do not think that a "3 way" will occur. It is my belief that a SLI arbitration would produce a list via slotting and ratios as DAL/NWA and perhaps UAL/CAL. The problem then with a "3 way" is that the effects of the merger have not been equally proportioned to east / west seniority positions when compared to the pre / post merger. Because of this discrepancy, the existence of the Nicolau, as well as the company's claim in court that it has always been the Nicolau since they formally accepted it, I believe there is very little chance of a "3 way" AMR/east/west arbitration.

Yes, before the gang jumps in, the Nicolau was never implemented via a JCBA per the TA. But that does not in any way mean that it simply goes away. It is the current system SLI unless the union negotiates something different with the company.

===================================================


You must clarify the arguments in this fight. They seem to get blurred in all of the back and forth. They are separate and have been clearly defined even though USAPA has been hard at work obfuscating.

The first is whether or not the TA, and by default the product of the process defined in the TA for determining an integrated seniority list- the Nicolau award- as accepted by the company, is binding on USAPA.

Both judge Wake and Silver have unquestionably stated that the TA and Nicolau award are, as a matter of law, binding on USAPA as the successor to ALPA. The USAPA arguments about the Nic only binding the merger committees or that the Nic is not valid because of lack of implementation are nothing but misdirection.

The second question, now that we have determined that the Nicolau is intact as the accepted integrated system seniority list for LCC, is whether USAPA can negotiate for something other than the Nicolau. Yes they can. They can negotiate all aspects of the collective bargaining agreement. This is where a legitimate union purpose must be demonstrated as defined by Rakestraw. But it does not negate that the Nicolau award is binding on the union. If it were not binding then there would be no requirement to demonstrate a Legitimate Union Objective in bargaining for a SLI other than the Nicolau. And the Nicolau award would not be used as a measuring tool to evaluate an alternative proposal.

From judge Wake, "As explained by the Ninth Circuit, 'seniority rights are creations of the collective bargaining agreement, and so may be revised or abrogated by later negotiated changes in this agreement.' ... And a union 'may renegotiate seniority provisions of a collective bargaining agreement, even though the
resulting changes are essentially retroactive or affect different employees unequally.'"

From judge Wake, "The legal question is whether USAPA-or any union-violates its duty of fair representation by adopting and promoting a certain integrated seniority list for no reason other than to favor one group of employees at the expense of another. An established genre of fair representation decisions says yes."

From judge Silver, "Of course, in negotiating for a particular seniority regime, USAPA must not breach its duty of fair representation. Accordingly, if USAPA wishes to abandon the Nicolau Award and accept the consequences of this course of action, it is free to do so. By discarding the result of a valid arbitration and negotiating for a different seniority regime, USAPA is running the risk that it will be sued by the disadvantaged pilots when the new collective bargaining agreement is finalized. An impartial arbitrator’s decision regarding an appropriate method of seniority integration is powerful evidence of a fair result. Discarding the Nicolau Award places USAPA on dangerous ground."

Did you READ the MOU II?

 

[nevergiveup]

Wrong!

Guess you missed this paragraph.


26. APA shall file a single carrier petition with the NMB as soon as practicable after the Effective Date, when APA determines that the facts support the legal requirements for the filing of a petition but in no event later than four months after the Effective Date. If and when the NMB makes a single- carrier finding, the single carrier acknowledged by the NMB and the certified representative shall be governed by this Memorandum.


The APA will be the bargaining agent long before seniority is started. usapa will be gone very soon.

Everyone seems to leave out the parts they don't like. The above can happen post seniority if USAPA and APA reach an agreement in the first 90 days after the effective date.