Dear Delle. . .

[twuer]

Sorry Dave, kind of got confused wiht the other topic. This topic was regarding Delle and why he hasn't posted the challenge on the national web site. If he was trying to hide from his members of why or why not he wasn't accepting the challenge from Mr. Little.

My mistake. . .

That's OK twuer, I understand how that mistake can be made.

Are you going to require Jim Little and the TWU to post all of AMFA written communications on the TWU ATD website?

Or do you just want Delle to post TWU writings on the AMFA website?

Seems you always want AMFA to be held to a different standard than you demand of your own union, why is that?

Now there are three easy questions, can you answer those?

Are you going to require Jim Little and the TWU to post all of AMFA written communications on the TWU ATD website?

I am not in a position to require anything. As far as I know all of this debate stuff has been posted. Even on the amfa site I believe the previous challenge was posted. But the current challenge has not been. It is quite a big deal is it not. . .a debate between amfa and the TWU? Just curious as to why you think it HASN'T been posted for all of the mafa members to see.

Or do you just want Delle to post TWU writings on the AMFA website?

No, that's not it. He has officailly been challenged. I just figured his members might want to know that. Silly me!!

Seems you always want AMFA to be held to a different standard than you demand of your own union, why is that?

No, not at all. I defend the TWU as best as I can. You guys are trying to get in at AA and are making all of these "promises" about what amfa can do for us at AA but yet you can provide NO real, solid proof of amfa's strengths. I would say that amfa has the burden of proof if you will. Why should we pick amfa??? We can't rely on what someone says might happen. This is the topic that I got confused with a minute ago. You guys can't answer questions when it comes to giving any proof of why we should choose amfa (other than we can vote Delle out!). It has nothing to do with what standards I hold. And I have answered many questions and given proof in the past of why I support twu.

How's that?? Did I answer to your standards??

 

[Decision 2004]

Here is why you should support AMFA...

The Concept of “Craft or Classâ€￾

This is Federal Legal concept “Craft or Classâ€￾

In accordance with the Railway Labor Act, the Federal Government has decided that certain work groups have a mutuality of interest at the bargaining table and in advancing worker related issues, and that groups outside of that particular craft or class should have no participation in how the union is run or at least in the initial decision as to who represents that work group. And so Pilots vote with Pilots, and Flight Attendants as matter of law are prohibited from voting with the Pilots. And in turn, the Pilots are prohibited by law from voting with the Flight Attendants because they are considered to be in different Craft or Classes by the National Mediation Board. And Mechanic and Related Workers within the Airline Industry are entitled by law to vote just amongst themselves.

Supporters of the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association (AMFA) believe that it comprises our mission to remain associated within a union structure with other crafts or classes that according to Federal Government do NOT share our mutuality of interest. The mission is further compromised when we remain associated with other crafts or classes within the union structure of “majority ruleâ€￾ and our particular craft or class is the minority in size. The Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association (AMFA) is the only union in this current debate at American Airlines that says “We will forbid ourselvesâ€￾, it will be unconstitutional for us to go and represent baggage handlers, flight attendants, or passenger service clerks, and we will not let ourselves do that because this would compromise our mission. We wish the baggage handlers and other crafts or classes on the property the very best, but they cannot pick our pockets, we wish them to get the very best on their own, but they should no longer be allowed to ride on our backs. In other words, it is time for the airline industry to decouple the mechanic vs. baggage handler pay and benefit structure. It is suffice to say that since deregulation of the airline industry which since enactment has created enormous competition and pressure on airline ticket pricing, and that has resulted in the craft or class of mechanic and related workers suffering in economic buying power, and especially when compared to the Pilots and Flight Attendants who at American belong to craft specific unions. In the mid 1970’s, the Flight Attendants of American Airlines were also represented by the Transport Workers Union of American (TWU), and just as the mechanics today seek a change to a craft specific union, they also left the TWU in favor of the independent Association of Professional Flight Attendants (APFA) The craft or class of Mechanic and Related at American Airlines can no longer afford to remain in an organization that advocates a linking of different work groups that according to law do not share a mutuality of interest.

Regardless of good or bad economic times, and regardless of whether the union is negotiating concessions to prevent a bankruptcy filing or negotiating from economic growth with corporate profits, the formula by which the economic pie is divided amongst the union membership is a union decision. The recent concession are a clear case in point, because American Airlines was demanding $620 Million in concessions from the TWU, but how those give backs were divided up was a union decision, not a company decision. And the facts are clear, that the craft or class of Mechanic and Related at American took more than our fair share of that amount, and it is also clear this was a union decision.

AMFA IS THE RIGHT CHOICE FOR SKILLED TECHNICIANS

twuer,

It is not just the Aircraft Mechanics at American that are disgruntled and unsatisifed with the TWU Contistution. The Bus Drivers of New York Local 100 have been in a battle for democratic control of the TWU for over 15 Years. The "New Directions" group has had to file legal complaints against the leadership of the TWU to make any gains.

Why continue to fight a battle against dicatators opposed to change? We can stand firm on our skill with other mechanics in the industry and the AMFA Constitution places the member in complete democratic control of the organization.

The logo, the slogans, and number of members does not make a union strong. The Constitution and empowering the membership will, and that is why I believe this is the right choice. I no longer believe the fear mongering campaign that the TWU and the AFL-CIO use to control the membership. I do not need a lobbyist telling my Congressman what I think, because I have their phone numbers, and I vote!

What exactly is it that you oppose and fear? Is it simply change that you are against? Are you an industrial unionist that wishes to subsidize other workers pay and benefits on the back of your accountability and skill?

I find it very interesting that anyone I discuss this with in the community, thinks it is pretty straight forward that mechanics need to be in their own union. Why can someone not working in the profession see this fact so easy, and yet you are in the profession and all you have is fear that keeps you attached to your current situation.

Look dude, I am not attacking for your where you are because I too was exactly where you are at in this debate. Once the light comes on and you realize that you are attached and controlled by nothing more than fear, if you have an ounce of courage in your bones, you will be as passionate for change as I am.

There is nothing that you can say or do that will bring me back to a reliance on fear and slogans. We just need to vote and see who is right. I do NOT FEAR the vote, do you? Does AA fear the vote? Just look around you. Who is doing what activity to stop a simple democratic vote of the working people? and Why? This reminds me of the Right-to-Work for Less Law in Oklahoma. For Years the TWU lobbied the State Politicians to PREVENT a vote of the people. When they lost that battle, the people voted in favor of right-to-work. What was the TWU reaction? File lawsuits and attempt to overturn the will of the people. Tell me twuer, do you support that type of anti-American leadership? Or do you just fear change?

 

[Bob Owens]

"I am not in a position to require anything"

Thats right because you are a TWU member and the TWU is not a democratic, accountable, transparent organization. That pretty much says it all.


No, not at all. I defend the TWU as best as I can. You guys are trying to get in at AA and are making all of these "promises" about what amfa can do for us at AA but yet you can provide NO real, solid proof of amfa's strengths. I would say that amfa has the burden of proof if you will. Why should we pick amfa??? We can't rely on what someone says might happen. This is the topic that I got confused with a minute ago. You guys can't answer questions when it comes to giving any proof of why we should choose amfa (other than we can vote Delle out!). It has nothing to do with what standards I hold. And I have answered many questions and given proof in the past of why I support twu.

How's that?? Did I answer to your standards??

Other than the democratic rights and the advantage of having all the mechanics joined together in one union what promises has AMFA made? They have discussed possibilities and argued why its structure and goals make those possibilities more likely but I have not seen too many promises.

The main thrust is that we feel that we would do better in a union that is focused on our career. In fact the SEIU put out a paper called "United We Win" that called for reorganizing and consolidating the labor movement. The SEIU is where Sweeney came from. The pilots have a focused union, so do plumbers, electricians , carpenters and other crafts. They seem to be doing pretty well. None of them have seen the twenty year decline that we have. Do you feel that the pilots would be better off to give up their union and join with the mechanics, baggage handlers subway workers, school bus drivers, casino card dealers, and AMTRACK workers? Do you feel that the needs of the pilot would still get the same attention and focus that they get with their current unions?

We have seen the TWUs track record. Twenty years of concessions and declining real wages. That is unacceptable, its time to change unions, twenty years of chances was more than reasonable. The TWU is a company union. Next time you step out of the hangar all you have to do is look at the flag pole and you can see that they dont even try to hide it (unlike the $3 million kickback they get from the company).

 

[twuer]

What is amfa's track record Bob?? They have been accountable for more devastation in such a short period of time. Amfa makes promises they can't keep. It's that simple!! They don't protect the profession. That's been proven!!! Amfa cannot be a union of just mechanics!! Sure it sounds good to lay people but we know better. What you preach cannot be attainable and that is why I am so against amfa!!! They have proven NOTHING as a union in the 40 years they have been in existance. I have NO respect for a man who would sacrifice many jobs to protect a few. NONE!!!!!!!! You do not have to like my stance but it is very clear. The TWU did what was best for the majoroty of the members unlike amfa. That is what unionism to me is about. Protecting your members and providing them with a decent wage a benefit package and working conditions. I am telling you things you already know. Concessions were needed to accomplish this, plain and simple. Do I like it. . .NO! And have never claimed to!! Was it necessary. . .YES!!! NWA and UAL (et al) are in very bad shape right now. AA is starting to climb out of its hole. I will put 110% of my efforts into getting back what we gave. But I will never put my support behind a wannabe union that breaks down what I have fought so hard to accomplish. Now, go ahead and criticize my personal opinions. . .that's your right. I am not on these boards to "punk" any person, and my nature as a man is non-judgemental and I try to "play fair" but in this case, when it comes to defending the union that I support from a group such as amfa then I will put up resistance.

Like I said in a previous post (somewhere) amfa has the "burden of proof"!! They have failed to provide it!!!

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

twuer,

"But I will never put my support behind a wannabe union that breaks down what I have fought so hard to accomplish. Now, go ahead and criticize my personal opinions. . .that's your right. I am not on these boards to "punk" any person, and my nature as a man is non-judgemental and I try to "play fair" but in this case, when it comes to defending the union that I support from a group such as amfa then I will put up resistance."

The first sentence in your above quote makes you sound like jim little. Being that you do not mean what you say. The twu broke down what little we had in our contract language. Why do you support the twu then? Criticizing your opinion after you have been shown the truth about the twu's ineptness and your continued support of the twu that you are criticized for.

We know you do not come on these boards to "punk" any person. You come on these boards to post behind an alias because you are not by nature a man who believes in what he says. If you believe in the twu because they are afraid to defend our profession by protecting AMTs you are backing the wrong union. Tell me why we did not get a full revote. Tell me why international positions are not voted on by the full membership.
You only "play fair" when you wish? Typical twu mantra. Why have you not spoken out about AA adding more names than there are in reality in our craft and class? With you and the twu defending our profession it will be only a matter of time before the Ramp is doing our jobs. But hurry up in your "defense" because there will be an election and the twu will lose. That's a fact. Why? Because the AMFA will "play fair". Something the twu does not know how to do.

GO AMFA!

 

[twuer]

The first sentence in your above quote makes you sound like jim little.
I admire Mr. Little, so thank you for that compliment Ken!

Criticizing your opinion after you have been shown the truth about the twu's ineptness and your continued support of the twu that you are criticized for.
What about amfa's ineptness Ken?? I swear I get so sick and tired of the hypocritical BS from you wannabes. Do I criticize you for supporting amfa and its "ineptness"?? I criticize amfa and it's ineptness. I criticize the fact that you wannabes can't give solid proof of what amfa does to protect the profession!! You want to turn this personal, bring it on Ken!!

We know you do not come on these boards to "punk" any person. You come on these boards to post behind an alias because you are not by nature a man who believes in what he says.
So now you are telling me what kind of man I am Ken??? Like I told Hackman yesterday, using an alias on a bulletin board has absolutely nothing to do with anything!!!! I have seen the way you amfa wannabes harrass and belittle those TWU supporters who do use their real names or happen to find out who is behind the alias. I personally do not want to go through that and sure don't want my family to hear anything like that. If you think I want an amfa puke calling my house in the middle of the night you're crazy. That's just another lame excuse from you amfa wannabes.

I never said the TWU was perfect union. With the history the TWU has (and we all know their history thanks to Dave and Bob!!) there are going to be things that people don't approve of. But you go by what the majority votes on. That's the same way amfa works is it not?? You criticize the system when you use the same one. Not everybody is happy with amfa!! You are a hypocrit Ken!! You still cannot produce anything that sells amfa, other than we can vote out Delle, can you??? I hate to tell you this but amfa is busy selling itself. Major job losses under amfa, and huge percentages of outsourcing under amfa, BK is the better way to go!!! YOU LOSE!!! There will be NO VOTE Ken!!! Watch and see. . .



AMFA will "play fair".
Yeh right!! Wait until we get to see their list!! Oh I forgot, amfa is perfect!!

 

[Bob Owens]

What is amfa's track record Bob??

AMFA set the rate at $35/hr for Airline mechanics. Over at Ozark, despite its small size AMFA had a contract that was superior to that of most other airlines, including AA.
When Ozark was bought out by TWA, their mechanics were dovetailed, however when we bought out TWA, another AFL-CIO union they only kept their Senoirity in MCI and STL, they were either stapled or got 25% anywhere else.

The point is not just what AMFAs track record is but what its plan is. AMFA seeks to unite all of our class and craft into one union. With all of us in one union it will be easier to focus on our issues.

The TWU has no plan, other than trying to get more dues from anywhere. They dont care if they can deliver, not that they even offer, because those running the show are not accountable.

They have been accountable for more devastation in such a short period of time.

It was AMFA and not the economy and 9-11? It used to be that as you got older your seniourity protected you from a downturn in the economy. Layoffs were always a part of this industry, good pay and benifits is what made it tolerable. Much of what you try to pin on AMFA such as UAL, happened during the IAMs reign. Do you think that our thousands of laid off workers are any better off than the thousands from other airlines? At least those workers have a good job to go back to someday.

Amfa makes promises they can't keep. It's that simple!! They don't protect the profession. That's been proven!!!

Present your proof.

Amfa cannot be a union of just mechanics!! Sure it sounds good to lay people but we know better. What you preach cannot be attainable and that is why I am so against amfa!!!

Mechanics will be the majority, but yes there are others such as exterior cleaners in our class and craft. When a 100 hour inspection is performed on a civil aviation craft isnt the first task that the mechanic has to perform is clean the aircraft?

They have proven NOTHING as a union in the 40 years they have been in existance. I have NO respect for a man who would sacrifice many jobs to protect a few. NONE!!!!!!!!

Then you have no respect for the majority of unions in the world. Most unions fight to maintain the wage and establish seniority systems so that when the inevitable downturn in the economy comes the senior worker stays on the job. Mike Quill said he would never negotiate pay cuts, recessions or not.The fact is that the majority of workers would still be working, even if AA had gone bankrupt. The only reason why AA had kept the work in house prior to all of this was because our costs were less. Isnt that what our scope says, that the company has to give us the opportunity to argue that we are more cost effective before sending the work out? It doesnt stop them from sending it out, they have to talk to the TWU first. I remember shipping all our A-300 engines to Europe for a while there. Why did it come back? The TWU-NO, Because they did a crappy job and it was more cost effective to do it in house.

You do not have to like my stance but it is very clear. The TWU did what was best for the majoroty of the members unlike amfa. That is what unionism to me is about.

The TWU was concerned about keeping its $3 million kickback. That was one of the few things from the "Vermont" bluff that is still in place.Twenty years of concessions is what unionism is all about to you?

Protecting your members and providing them with a decent wage a benefit package and working conditions.

Er, have you read the contract? They did not "protect" much, except their $3 million kickback.

NWA and UAL (et al) are in very bad shape right now.

Didnt NWA show a bigger profit than AA, without slashing their mechanics pay and benifits? UAL has been in bad shape for a long time. Remember their ESOP? More than likely it was the fact that AA could undercut them because of the TWU that has kept UAL in a constant struggle.

AA is starting to climb out of its hole.

And we are all falling into one thanks to the TWU.

I will put 110% of my efforts into getting back what we gave.

Yea, like the half hour , push backs, cross utilization etc. With the TWU we will never get it back.

 

[Raptor]

No, not at all. I defend the TWU as best as I can. You guys are trying to get in at AA and are making all of these "promises" about what amfa can do for us at AA but yet you can provide NO real, solid proof of amfa's strengths. I would say that amfa has the burden of proof if you will. Why should we pick amfa??? We can't rely on what someone says might happen. This is the topic that I got confused with a minute ago. You guys can't answer questions when it comes to giving any proof of why we should choose amfa (other than we can vote Delle out!). It has nothing to do with what standards I hold. And I have answered many questions and given proof in the past of why I support twu.

TWUer the problem is that when you or someone else on team TWU ask's a question and it get's answered you do not like the answer so you continue to ask the same question trying to get an answer that you like and of course you never do get the answer you want so you continue to ask the same question and then you say that we refuse to answer your questions, do you not see the illogicalness of this, if you ask a question just take the answer you get if you do not like it that is your perogative as for the burden of proof being on AMFA many think that AMFA has already prooved itself to their satisfaction just as you think the TWU has prooved itself to your satisfaction, basically I don't think it comes down to trying to proving something that can't be proved to everyone's satisfaction I think it comes down to making a choice, Neither Union is perfect, both Unions have different philosophies, what each individual must do is decide which Union is best for them and then cast their vote. That Gentlemen is the bottom line here wouldn't you agree TWUer

We will be voting very soon.

 

[Bob Owens]

TWUer the problem is that when you or someone else on team TWU ask's a question and it get's answered you do not like the answer so you continue to ask the same question trying to get an answer that you like and of course you never do get the answer you want so you continue to ask the same question and then you say that we refuse to answer your questions, do you not see the illogicalness of this, if you ask a question just take the answer you get if you do not like it that is your perogative as for the burden of proof being on AMFA many think that AMFA has already prooved itself to their satisfaction just as you think the TWU has prooved itself to your satisfaction, basically I don't think it comes down to trying to proving something that can't be proved to everyone's satisfaction I think it comes down to making a choice, Neither Union is perfect, both Unions have different philosophies, what each individual must do is decide which Union is best for them and then cast their vote. That Gentlemen is the bottom line here wouldn't you agree TWUer

We will be voting very soon.

Lets not forget how if the TWU doesnt like the question they dont answer it.