Could It Be That American Unions Are To Blame?

[TWU informer]

As I read the other airlines bulletin boards and posting after posting attempts to blame someone or something for the airline industry BK filings.

I wonder, couldn't it be argued that AA Union's so-called restructuring agreement placed as much pressure on other carriers as fuel, business travel fall-off, SARS, or any other blame someone wants to place on the situation.

As we sit here working for AA, which all analyst say is in good financial shape, and without fuel price increases would have posted record profits.

Is it possible, that the working men and women of AA, have actually placed harship on our fellow workers in the industry by past and current industry leading concession bargaining? Afterall, how many "first" when it comes to concessions has the AA Union Workforce Championed?

Could it be that AA Union's are now so company oriented that the leadership of these organizations are actually harming other workers as much as Walmart, or any other cut throat low cost company?

I just figure that if we are going to walk around the planet looking for someone of something to blame for airline industry woes, then those that capitulated industry leading concessions, placed as much competetive pressure on other airlines and their workforce, as many other issues have also.

One thing about it though...

As of right now...

"WE'VE GOT OURS BROTHER"

Organized Labor is more like organized company union dog eat dog.

What really worries me the most?

WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND :huh:

 

[Bob Owens]

As I read the other airlines bulletin boards and posting after posting attempts to blame someone or something for the airline industry BK filings.

I wonder, couldn't it be argued that AA Union's so-called restructuring agreement placed as much pressure on other carriers as fuel, business travel fall-off, SARS, or any other blame someone wants to place on the situation.

As we sit here working for AA, which all analyst say is in good financial shape, and without fuel price increases would have posted record profits.

Is it possible, that the working men and women of AA, have actually placed harship on our fellow workers in the industry by past and current industry leading concession bargaining? Afterall, how many "first" when it comes to concessions has the AA Union Workforce Championed?

Could it be that AA Union's are now so company oriented that the leadership of these organizations are actually harming other workers as much as Walmart, or any other cut throat low cost company?

I just figure that if we are going to walk around the planet looking for someone of something to blame for airline industry woes, then those that capitulated industry leading concessions, placed as much competetive pressure on other airlines and their workforce, as many other issues have also.

One thing about it though...

As of right now...

"WE'VE GOT OURS BROTHER"

Organized Labor is more like organized company union dog eat dog.

What really worries me the most?

WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND :huh:

[post="300787"][/post]​

That is exactly what we have done, and we have done it for 20 years.

One thing you can be sure of is that no matter what concessions the other carriers get in BK is that the TWU will beat those concessions. They will not lose the race to the bottom!!

 

[High Speed Steel]

As I read the other airlines bulletin boards and posting after posting attempts to blame someone or something for the airline industry BK filings.

I wonder, couldn't it be argued that AA Union's so-called restructuring agreement placed as much pressure on other carriers as fuel, business travel fall-off, SARS, or any other blame someone wants to place on the situation.

As we sit here working for AA, which all analyst say is in good financial shape, and without fuel price increases would have posted record profits.

Is it possible, that the working men and women of AA, have actually placed harship on our fellow workers in the industry by past and current industry leading concession bargaining? Afterall, how many "first" when it comes to concessions has the AA Union Workforce Championed?

Could it be that AA Union's are now so company oriented that the leadership of these organizations are actually harming other workers as much as Walmart, or any other cut throat low cost company?

I just figure that if we are going to walk around the planet looking for someone of something to blame for airline industry woes, then those that capitulated industry leading concessions, placed as much competetive pressure on other airlines and their workforce, as many other issues have also.

One thing about it though...

As of right now...

"WE'VE GOT OURS BROTHER"

Organized Labor is more like organized company union dog eat dog.

What really worries me the most?

WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND :huh:

[post="300787"][/post]​

Yeah, It could be the employees of Americans falt. I guess they were the first to recognize the "Perfect Storm" that was to riddle the industry... And it was the TWU that had recognized the "Perfect Storm" that was to riddle the industry...And it was the AFL-CIO that recognized the "Perfect Storm" that was to riddle the industry... But you fail to give credit to TWU/AFL-CIO that worked jointly to find the "Life Boat" that has carried so many in these trying times! You have failed to give credit to the TWU/AA efforts to find the "Life Boat" that has carried so many to survive in these trying times.

The industry has changed and you must be willing to go forward unto "undiscovered territory" or be left behind....

So what is your ultimatum to the change of the industry Informer...??????

Where have the employees of AA gone wrong.....??????

Please wave your "magic wand" and make everything better

 

[Bob Owens]

High Speed Steel,Sep 15 2005, 02:37 AM]
Yeah, It could be the employees of Americans falt.

It is. The concessions of the AA/TWU started long before 2003.

I guess they were the first to recognize the "Perfect Storm" that was to riddle the industry...

No, Jim Little saw that in the Vermont plan his kickback from the company was about to be eliminated. In BK the $3.1 million the company gives to the TWU would be history.

And it was the TWU that had recognized the "Perfect Storm" that was to riddle the industry...And it was the AFL-CIO that recognized the "Perfect Storm" that was to riddle the industry... But you fail to give credit to TWU/AFL-CIO that worked jointly to find the "Life Boat" that has carried so many in these trying times!

Carried so many? Do you actually think that all these planes would have sat still? If things are really so bad how come all these airlines are still flying?

You have failed to give credit to the TWU/AA efforts to find the "Life Boat" that has carried so many to survive in these trying times.

They deserve no credit, they sunk the careers of every mechanic, FSC Stock clerk etc. There are no careers here anymore. Sure there may be a job but 95% of the country has a job.

The industry has changed and you must be willing to go forward unto "undiscovered territory" or be left behind....


The fact is we have been left behind buy the rest of the population, do you know of any career where wages have decreased by 25% over the past four years?

So what is your ultimatum to the change of the industry Informer...??????

Lets all go on strike. Shut it all down and lets see if this country needs an air transport system or not.

Where have the employees of AA gone wrong.....??????

They have gone wrong since 1983 with a never ending series of concessions. Concessions in good times and bad times. The Employees of AA have screwed everyone in this industry thanks to the TWU.

Please wave your "magic wand" and make everything better

No magic wand, just progressive steps in the right direction. The first one is to get rid of the AA management run TWU.

 

[TWU informer]

Yeah, It could be the employees of Americans falt. I guess they were the first to recognize the "Perfect Storm" that was to riddle the industry... And it was the TWU that had recognized the "Perfect Storm" that was to riddle the industry...And it was the AFL-CIO that recognized the "Perfect Storm" that was to riddle the industry... But you fail to give credit to TWU/AFL-CIO that worked jointly to find the "Life Boat" that has carried so many in these trying times! You have failed to give credit to the TWU/AA efforts to find the "Life Boat"  that has carried so many to survive in these trying times.

Hmmm, And I thought it was the TWU that failed to recognize the hidden SERP bonuses when the hired gun was reviewing the books. Of course, if it wasn't for the required SEC filing, that would still be hidden. Which begs the question, what else was and is hidden and never uncovered or diclosed? The truth us that if not for Fuel Prices, AA would have come very close or over a $2 BILLION DOLLAR PROFIT. That's a record profit, and you want me to believe that company union minions saw the fuel price coming? You full of it! How quickly you forget Carty was ran off, and t-shirts were being worn about "Show Me the Shared Sacrfice". Your memory is short, or non-existent.

The industry has changed and you must be willing to go forward unto "undiscovered territory" or be left behind....

Does that mean give concessions until you cannot afford to live in low cost Tulsa? Going forward with you appears to be give more, give more, give more, give more, and then improve productivity and performance with no guarantee of a return for the worker. Giving concessions is not "undiscovered territory", we've been doing that for twenty years. Bringing third party work is not new, in the early 80's we were doing FedEx, Piedmont, Continental, Air Force, and Branniff work in Tulsa. There wasn't massive committee's and smoke blowing agents then, we just went and got the work and did it. You and others pretend we are doing something new. Those that have been around awhile remember the good times, and we are not in pursuit of anything new. AA got out third party work due to capacity retrictions, not because there wasn't money to be made. Get a clue and think with a little logic, instead of breathing daily extreme levels of management smoke screens that keep you from the truth.

So what is your ultimatum to the change of the industry Informer...??????

All Airline Workers stick together a shut the transportation system down until our demands are met instead of cowering in fear and beating each other to get under the supervisors desk to get out of work, er, I mean manage the airline.

Where have the employees of AA  gone wrong.....??????

By becoming selfish and self centered company union suck-ups that force other workers that are willing to fight into BK court.

Please wave your "magic wand" and make everything better

[post="300800"][/post]​

That's just it, and the part you don't seem to get. There is no magic wand, the answer is in true unionism like you see overseas. Yeah that's right, not a t-shirt with a slogan, not a new hat with a fancy logo, not a newsletter pretending to be a union. I'm talking real unionism and concern for others instead of just yourself.

"The part of UNION I don't understand" is the part where you first give up $620 Million in concessions, then on top of that work real hard to insure turntimes are reduced and heavy "c" checks get a cost reduction of 46% without being given any credit or written guarantee that the workforce will get something in return.

Instead, we are giving away what is left of the farm, on a hope and prayer that corporate predators are fair and honest and will give us something in return.

Ever wonder why AA Management always dodges questions about any return of pay or benefits? Ever wonder why the Mission Statements, Signed Break Through Goals, or any other letters realted to recent activity has nothing about future negotiations?

I guess you are to the point that just having a job is good enough, no matter how far your standard of living is eroded.

 

[High Speed Steel]

High Speed Steel,Sep 15 2005, 02:37 AM]
Yeah, It could be the employees of Americans falt.

It is. The concessions of the AA/TWU started long before 2003.

I guess they were the first to recognize the "Perfect Storm" that was to riddle the industry...

No, Jim Little saw that in the Vermont plan his kickback from the company was about to be eliminated. In BK the $3.1 million the company gives to the TWU would be history.

And it was the TWU that had recognized the "Perfect Storm" that was to riddle the industry...And it was the AFL-CIO that recognized the "Perfect Storm" that was to riddle the industry... But you fail to give credit to TWU/AFL-CIO that worked jointly to find the "Life Boat" that has carried so many in these trying times!

Carried so many? Do you actually think that all these planes would have sat still? If things are really so bad how come all these airlines are still flying?

You have failed to give credit to the TWU/AA efforts to find the "Life Boat" that has carried so many to survive in these trying times.

They deserve no credit, they sunk the careers of every mechanic, FSC Stock clerk etc. There are no careers here anymore. Sure there may be a job but 95% of the country has a job.

The industry has changed and you must be willing to go forward unto "undiscovered territory" or be left behind....
The fact is we have been left behind buy the rest of the population, do you know of any career where wages have decreased by 25% over the past four years?

So what is your ultimatum to the change of the industry Informer...??????

Lets all go on strike. Shut it all down and lets see if this country needs an air transport system or not.

Where have the employees of AA gone wrong.....??????

They have gone wrong since 1983 with a never ending series of concessions. Concessions in good times and bad times. The Employees of AA have screwed everyone in this industry thanks to the TWU.

Please wave your "magic wand" and make everything better

No magic wand, just progressive steps in the right direction. The first one is to get rid of the AA management run TWU.

[post="300803"][/post]​

I knew I could count on you to "blew me Bob"....!!!! So in your superior intellect, what is your answer to the disparitive life we currently live...???? Don't tell me "amfa now" :blink:

We all know that is a joke

 

[air_guy]

As I read the other airlines bulletin boards and posting after posting attempts to blame someone or something for the airline industry BK filings.

I wonder, couldn't it be argued that AA Union's so-called restructuring agreement placed as much pressure on other carriers as fuel, business travel fall-off, SARS, or any other blame someone wants to place on the situation.

As we sit here working for AA, which all analyst say is in good financial shape, and without fuel price increases would have posted record profits.

Is it possible, that the working men and women of AA, have actually placed harship on our fellow workers in the industry by past and current industry leading concession bargaining? Afterall, how many "first" when it comes to concessions has the AA Union Workforce Championed?

Could it be that AA Union's are now so company oriented that the leadership of these organizations are actually harming other workers as much as Walmart, or any other cut throat low cost company?

I just figure that if we are going to walk around the planet looking for someone of something to blame for airline industry woes, then those that capitulated industry leading concessions, placed as much competetive pressure on other airlines and their workforce, as many other issues have also.

One thing about it though...

As of right now...

"WE'VE GOT OURS BROTHER"

Organized Labor is more like organized company union dog eat dog.

What really worries me the most?

WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND :huh:

[post="300787"][/post]​

If that is what you think, why don't you describe a different course of action by AA or its unions that would have saved the other airlines.

 

[Oneflyer]

All I can say is wow. Scary.

 

[High Speed Steel]

Hmmm, And I thought it was the TWU that failed to recognize the hidden SERP bonuses when the hired gun was reviewing the books. Of course, if it wasn't for the required SEC filing, that would still be hidden. Which begs the question, what else was and is hidden and never uncovered or diclosed? The truth us that if not for Fuel Prices, AA would have come very close or over a $2 BILLION DOLLAR PROFIT. That's a record profit, and you want me to believe that company union minions saw the fuel price coming? You full of it!
Does that mean give concessions until you cannot afford to live in low cost Tulsa? Going forward with you appears to be give more, give more, give more, give more, and then improve productivity and performance with no guarantee of a return for the worker. Giving concessions is not "undiscovered territory", we've been doing that for twenty years. Bringing third party work is not new, in the early 80's we were doing FedEx, Piedmont, Continental, Air Force, and Branniff work in Tulsa. There wasn't massive committee's and smoke blowing agents then, we just went and got the work and did it. You and others pretend we are doing something new. Those that have been around awhile remember the good times, and we are not in pursuit of anything new. AA got out third party work due to capacity retrictions, not because there wasn't money to be made. Get a clue and think with a little logic, instead of breathing daily extreme levels of management smoke screens that keep you from the truth.
All Airline Workers stick together a shut the transportation system down until our demands are met instead of cowering in fear and beating each other to get under the supervisors desk to get out of work, er, I mean manage the airline.
By becoming selfish and self centered company union suck-ups that force other workers that are willing to fight into BK court.
That's just it, and the part you don't seem to get. There is no magic wand, the answer is in true unionism like you see overseas. Yeah that's right, not a t-shirt with a slogan, not a new hat with a fancy logo, not a newsletter pretending to be a union. I'm talking real unionism and concern for others instead of just yourself.

"The part of UNION I don't understand" is the part where you first give up $620 Million in concessions, then on top of that work real hard to insure turntimes are reduced and heavy "c" checks get a cost reduction of 46% without being given any credit or written guarantee that the workforce will get something in return.

Instead, we are giving away what is left of the farm, on a hope and prayer that corporate predators are fair and honest and will give us something in return.

Ever wonder why AA Management always dodges questions about any return of pay or benefits? Ever wonder why the Mission Statements, Signed Break Through Goals, or any other letters realted to recent activity has nothing about future negotiations?

I guess you are to the point that just having a job is good enough, no matter how far your standard of living is eroded.

[post="300810"][/post]​

Informer, This is the difference between you and I..... You continue to wallow in the past, where I wish to "dig our way out of the current position we find ourselves in"...!!!! We must be willing to go forward. The past is just that,"the past"...!!! We have to try to move forward...And that is now more prominent than ever....!!!!!!

 

[Bob Owens]

HSS and Air-guy;

I did. In early 2001 when UAL was threatening to get the Judge to abrogate their agreement I sent out an E-mail saying that when the first contract is voided all union airline workers should walk off the job. I said that once one airline did this the rest of us were history and that we would be in a viscious cycle of paycuts and concessions.


Jim Little demanded that I retract that E-mail, I said that if he was a leader he would have been the one to send it out. If we had stood together then things would not be nearly as bad for us now. Look at those terminals people. Look at the load factors!!! If we stood together who would be moving all those people and all that frieght? If the planes and bellies were emplty it might be a different story but they are not.

The fact is that our union leaders did not believe anything that they have been preaching. The IAM was worried about their declining membership. The TWU saw this as an opportunity to increase its membership even more. The fact is they all failed because none of them stood together, unless of course you want to count how all the unions on AAs property stood together in support of the most massive concessions package in history.

By the way I was urging that we support the IAM. I'm a unionist, not a business unionist like Little and company but I will say that based on the last twenty years the TWU must go.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

I wonder, couldn't it be argued that AA Union's so-called restructuring agreement placed as much pressure on other carriers as fuel, business travel fall-off, SARS, or any other blame someone wants to place on the situation.



YES!

 

[Bob Owens]

I wonder, couldn't it be argued that AA Union's so-called restructuring agreement placed as much pressure on other carriers as fuel, business travel fall-off, SARS, or any other blame someone wants to place on the situation.
YES!

[post="300834"][/post]​

Even more so. All the airlines faced those same pressures. But AA had a labor cost advantage going into all this and then they got an even bigger advantage without the expense of BK.

By the way I brought this point up too in my E-mail exchanges with Little.

 

[Bob Owens]

Informer, This is the difference between you and I..... You continue to wallow in the past, where I wish to "dig our way out of the current position we find ourselves in"...!!!! We must be willing to go forward. The past is just that,"the past"...!!! We have to try to move forward...And that is now more prominent than ever....!!!!!!

[post="300830"][/post]​

Isnt it amazing how TWU proponents sound exactly like management?

Its not in the past, it shows up every time I try to pay a bill!! It shows up on the Holidays I dont get paid for, vacation I dont get etc.

 

[High Speed Steel]

HSS and Air-guy;

I did. In early 2001 when UAL was threatening to get the Judge to abrogate their agreement I sent out an E-mail saying that when the first contract is voided all union airline workers should walk off the job. I said that once one airline did this the rest of us were history and that we would be in a viscious cycle of paycuts and concessions.
Jim Little demanded that I retract that E-mail, I said that if he was a leader he would have been the one to send it out. If we had stood together then things would not be nearly as bad for us now. Look at those terminals people. Look at the load factors!!! If we stood together who would be moving all those people and all that frieght? If the planes and bellies were emplty it might be a different story but they are not.

The fact is that our union leaders did not believe anything that they have been preaching. The IAM was worried about their declining membership. The TWU saw this as an opportunity to increase its membership even more. The fact is they all failed because none of them stood together, unless of course you want to count how all the unions on AAs property stood together in support of the most massive concessions package in history.

By the way I was urging that we support the IAM. I'm a unionist, not a business unionist like Little and company but I will say that based on the last twenty years the TWU must go.

[post="300833"][/post]​

Bob, I respect your reply. But again, you are reliving the past! We have to move forward.

Do we have the resolve to weather the "Perfect Storm"....???

 

[Bob Owens]

High Speed Steel,Sep 15 2005, 03:45 AM]
Bob, I respect your reply.

Since when?

But again, you are reliving the past!

No I'm not. Its the bills of today and tomorrow that are my greatest concern.

We have to move forward.

There you go sounding like management again. How can we be expected to "move forward" when our pay is going backwards?

Do we have the resolve to weather the "Perfect Storm"....???

Perfect storm? More like perfect failure. Sure you can sit back and throw out philisophical metaphores because where you live its cheap and you can sit back and live well off the sacrifices that we made.You want to move forward? Give up another 50% of your wages, that will put you at about where we are at, then the company can give all of us, M&R, FSC, Stock Clerks etc our holiday, shift, sick, IOD and maybe even a COLA. Then we will all be in the same boat. As it is now you are in the boat, but we are under it holding it up so you wont get wet!