Competition in the Skies: Is Delta the Problem, or the Solution?

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

Maybe that was by design on SW part.....

No, no, no.  SW, or any other airline for that matter, is nowhere near as smart as DL is ......

 

[700UW]

15-20 minutes of gate time?
 
You are kidding right?
 
No way to deplane, unload, load, service, board in 15-20 minutes, and what if there are flights on the gates delayed all ready or DL gets delayed?

 

[WorldTraveler]

Maybe that was by design on SW part.....

 
or maybe it was by design on DL's part knowing full well that WN doesn't release its schedules that far in advance.
 
Not sure how WN and VX could argue that they just happened to schedule 18 flights at exactly the time DL wants to use the gates when DL's schedule was already released and only WN's current published could be used as the basis for comparing.
 
We could look at WN's published schedules but I would strongly bet that DL specifically published its schedule which some have noted requires more than 3 gates during the peak afternoon push because DL knows that there is no such thing as exclusive use agreements, despite swamt's assertion and with E's confirmation.
 

 

The use of large RJs on some of the routes including for the overnights means that DL only needs 15-20 minutes of gate time per flight to load and dispatch a flight and even less for the overnight arrivals. 

That's an unrealistic time frame, even in optimal conditions. It also is significantly less than DL's own Minimum Standard Ground Times (MGST's). I'm sure you know where to look those up, yes?

 
 
The majority of the rest of the schedule can easily be adjusted within DL's existing bank structure at its other hubs that the chances that DL can't serve the routes it says it intends to serve is slim to none. 

Wouldn't that depend on what they actual schedule (or available times) actually are? Seems sort of assumptive to claim otherwise at this point. Depending on what hub we're talking about, I'm sure there'll be connectivity- even if it's sub-optimal- but I can also see the very real possibility of these flights arriving outside of (or between) banks....
 

 
 
I am still very comfortable that DL will be at DAL with a robust schedule on Oct 14, 2014.
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of course it is below DL's minimum ground times... but minimum ground time is based on applying standard operating procedures.  DL and the regional carriers involved can alter anything, esp. if there is increased staffing necessary to support the accelerated work processes and altered procedures that are necessary to turn an aircraft faster.
 
There are many cities, esp. international cities, that do not follow DL's standard procedures because of local airport procedures and yet DL adapts its processes to fit.
 
Yes, it is possible that MSP and DTW flights would be harder to fit outside of defined banks but ATL is a large enough continuous hub that the flights could fit basically anywhere in ATL's schedule and LGA and LAX will be largely local traffic so hub flow is less important. 
 
as for the 15-20 time frame I noted, reread and see that I spoke about LOADING overnighters which are already there. 
 
15-20 minutes is more than enough time to load 76 passengers on a flight that the crew has already prepped.  The only regulation DAL has that has been mentioned here is that all passengers have to be loaded at the terminal (no remote boarding).  At JFK, LAX, and many gate constrained airports around the world, it is common for the plane to be fully prepped before it gets to the gate, although the crew usually doesn't touch the plane before it is at the gate - but there have been situations where that does happen.
 
with added staff and an extra station wagon, DL could alter its operational procedures to maximize the availability of gates and it will be a whole lot harder for WN or VX or DAL to argue that DL's need for 15-20 minutes for an overnighter or terminator or even 30 minutes for a large RJ turn is excessive and cannot be fit into DAL's schedule. 
 
Delays are part of the business and it works both ways.
 
Let's also remember E's statement that these same rules of accommodation apply at other airports as well... WN and B6 are going to have to be trying to shoehorn a lot more activity into gates that have not seen that much activity for quite some time.  There are gate swaps that AA-US need that depend on cooperation from other airlines. 
 
Good - and the bad stuff - goes around.  It depends solely on what you want to spread.

 

[Kev3188]

or maybe it was by design on DL's part knowing full well that WN doesn't release its schedules that far in advance.

Neither does DL, which lends some credence to the "posturing" theory being bandied about.
 
 

of course it is below DL's minimum ground times... but minimum ground time is based on applying standard operating procedures.  DL and the regional carriers involved can alter anything, esp. if there is increased staffing necessary to support the accelerated work processes and altered procedures that are necessary to turn an aircraft faster.

The exceptions generally allow for MORE ground time, not less. There is a reason they are referred to as minimum standard ground times. One can make the case for extremely high gate usage (all the more so in a thread involving WMN), but you cannot at the same time realistically use the numbers you have.
 

There are many cities, esp. international cities, that do not follow DL's standard procedures because of local airport procedures and yet DL adapts its processes to fit.

No doubt, but see above.
 

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

 
of course it is below DL's minimum ground times... but minimum ground time is based on applying standard operating procedures.  DL and the regional carriers involved can alter anything, esp. if there is increased staffing necessary to support the accelerated work processes and altered procedures that are necessary to turn an aircraft faster.

but there has to be a point where with the extra staffing costs the flights become unprofitable to operate

 

[eolesen]

Again, you're reading way too much into the scare resource clause, WT.

The difference between a preferred use and exclusive use are minimal, and tenant airlines aren't held to something like "an average of the past 12 months" test when it comes to how they plan to use their leasehold.

Put bluntly, tenants have first dibs at the times *they* want to fly. DL will be shoehorned into the available time.

So, it won't matter that DL published a schedule ten months in advance and VX or WN only published four months in advance. Preferred use trumps accommodation.

The likely source of gates is going to be ExpressJet, not WN. UA's only operating about 8 flights a day.

If they do decide to up the ante and add service, they can. And given the petulance that DL is showing, perhaps they'll do it just to rub Glenn's nose in their preferential leasehold Wrights.

After all, UA has paid a lease on an underused asset for the past nine years. They can easily argue that they were holding the lease in order to increase service post-October. Certainly, that's the argument AA had for renewing their lease in 2011.

Also... there's another tenant we've all overlooked. Seaport is providing EAS service DAL-ELD (El Dorado, AR), with departure times at 0800 and 1615. That's existing service which also needs to be accommodated at a fixed gate, as pad operations are not permitted at DAL.

 

[WorldTraveler]

again, DL still has its flights for sale. 
 
They obviously believe they have grounds to push for access or they have alternate means to serve DAL.
 
I am still confident will be at DAL on Oct 14, 2014 with a robust schedule.  Would you like to bet against me?

 

[700UW]

15 to 20 minutes is not enough time to turn a flight.
 
You wouldnt know that since you sat in your cubicle.
 
Ask someone like Kevin who actually works a flight about it.
 
Deplane, unload, clean, cater, fuel, load, board, no way.

 

[WorldTraveler]

are you truly that dense?  I didn't say anything about TURNING a flight in 15-20 minutes and have repeated that here but you keep pushing on something that you have been told isn't the issue - so typical of you.
 
Reread what was said.   15-20 minutes to LOAD or UNLOAD (not both) a plane that was originating OR terminating.  DL pulls int'l arriving widebodies off the gate in only a few minutes more than that. 

 

[700UW]

Actually they dont, it takes longer for Customs and Agriculture to clear the flight before its allowed to be serviced and moved.
 
Only allowed to deplane, and unload until customs and agriculture clear the flight to be serviced.
 
I worked International majority of my time as line utility.

 

[WorldTraveler]

well apparently DL works better with customs and immigration including in other countries.
 
 
 
Again, DL routinely pulls an int'l widebody arrival off the gate in only a few minutes more than what I said.
 
thanks for recognizing that I was talking about the inbound OR departure but not a turn.
 
 
besides, lav service doesn't change whether the flight is inbound from TPE or TPA. 

 

[700UW]

Ooh big
 

besides, lav service doesn't change whether the flight is inbound from TPE or TPA. 

Ooh a dig?
 
Lame attempt.
 
And actually it does, an international ETOPS flight must have the job card signed off and paperwork in the cockpit.
 
And a widebody servicing is different than a narrow body.
 
I wouldnt expect you to know this as you were in a cubicle in revenue management, not working a flight.
 
Deboarding and Customs and Ag takes longer than 15 minutes, I worked it everyday, did you?

 

[WorldTraveler]

and what of this has to do with lav service?
 
you at US need a job card to dump a lav?
 
I've dumped my share of int'l widebody lavs - one hole or many - and never had any paperwork.

 

[Kev3188]

...as for the 15-20 time frame I noted, reread and see that I spoke about LOADING overnighters which are already there.

I thought about that, but remember that also requires towing on/off, all the other things involved, and doesn't even take into account all of the "what ifs?" that happen every day. You (as in you specifically) can certainly make a very valid argument about "permanent quick turns," and expedited launch/RON flights, but what you are pushing for here is beyond the bounds of a realistic battle plan, and I have to think that those in Network Planning would agree.
 

15-20 minutes is more than enough time to load 76 passengers on a flight that the crew has already prepped.

:15-20 minutes is a long time in "real time," but no it's not all too realistic to bank on. You're also assuming that an already prepped crew was actually on the plane all along (taxied to the gate?), that the F/A's have done their req'ed checks, that it's been groomed (I'll assume this is a launch, and that has already been done overnight), and so on.

Even if all that somehow falls into line, what about the PAX themselves? Late runners? back ups at TSA? Long lines at the counter? IROPS?



 

 
 

Let's also remember E's statement that these same rules of accommodation apply at other airports as well... WN and B6 are going to have to be trying to shoehorn a lot more activity into gates that have not seen that much activity for quite some time.  There are gate swaps that AA-US need that depend on cooperation from other airlines. 
 
Good - and the bad stuff - goes around.  It depends solely on what you want to spread.

Nothing wrong with pushing the efficiency envelope, but thee is a point where it becomes a bit too clever by half, and winds up backfiring. Your scenario simply counts on too many things having to fall *exactly* in line flight after flight, day after day, and not taking into account a lot of both controllable & uncontrollable factors...
 
 

are you truly that dense?  I didn't say anything about TURNING a flight in 15-20 minutes and have repeated that here but you keep pushing on something that you have been told isn't the issue - so typical of you.
 
Reread what was said.   15-20 minutes to LOAD or UNLOAD (not both) a plane that was originating OR terminating.  DL pulls int'l arriving widebodies off the gate in only a few minutes more than that.

That's not true, either. Did you mean to say 15-20 minutes more after the last person (and cargo) was deplaned?
 
 

Actually they dont, it takes longer for Customs and Agriculture to clear the flight before its allowed to be serviced and moved.
 
Only allowed to deplane, and unload until customs and agriculture clear the flight to be serviced.
 
I worked International majority of my time as line utility.

That's how it worked when I did Int'l flights too. Pax can get off of course, but no one can get on and/or service it until they clear it...

 

[700UW]

ETOPS flights have a required job card to be done, there is a block on the job card for Lav Servicing and has to be signed off and stamped by the person who did it.
 
And yes at US there is a form that is placed in the cockpit, signed off by whomever did the lav and water servicing, and signed off by the lead who verified the work was accomplished.
 
See if you were in the loop you would know the procedures.
 
And by the way, I wrote and documented all the lav servicing procedures for all aircraft that US flies and even wrote and starred in the training video.