Company Provides Alpa With New Proposal

[USA320Pilot]

According to ALPA MEC chairman Bill Pollock in a letter to the pilot's dated September 19, "The Court's role (in the S.1113 process) in deciding on whether to reject the agreement is just to decide on whether the Company's request meets the statutory requirements -- he does not pick and choose between elements of the proposals of the parties. So, absent a consensual resolution, the judge would have to decide whether or not to let the airline implement its proposal, evaluating as part of that determination whether the union's counterproposal makes the sacrifices in an amount and in types of changes necessary for the Company to reorganize."

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

 

[USA320Pilot]

Unless there is a consensual agreement between the pilot's and the Company, ALPA's advisors believe the Company's September 20 proposal would be the basis for the S.1113(e) and S.1113 motion, which could be served on the pilots shortly. The process could begin at an emergency hearing or the October 7 pension hearing and end at the October 14 Omnibus hearing.

The intent is to have new consensual or imposed agreements in place before the ATSB's approval for the interim loan guarantee financing expires on October 15.

It’s my understanding the out of seniority furlough for pilots would be instantaneous and by fleet type, which would likely eliminate most of the non-A320 pilots. The plan would be implemented similar in scope to the TPA hangar closure and we would a lock out, where people like Mwereplanes, Walmartgreeter, BoeingBoy, and two of the RC4 would be furloughed out of seniority, without severance pay, and no MDA option.

ALPA’s advisors told the MEC that prior to bankruptcy the union could reach an agreement that was 80 to 85% of the ask (the company’s initial proposal and the HP contract), at bankruptcy 100% of the ask (the company’s September 10 proposal), and in bankruptcy a worse proposal (the company’s September 20 proposal).

Guess what? The ALPA advisors have been dead-on-accurate in their predictions and the RC4 and their backers have been 100% wrong. How could that be?

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

 

[Dizel8]

"we would have a lock out, where people like Mwereplanes, Walmartgreeter, BoeingBoy, and two of the RC4 would be furloughed out of seniority, without severance pay"

Sorry guys, you are just to opinionated, so we have decided to let you go!

Out of seniority furlough, hmm, think that will go over like a fart at mass. I am sure that the 767, A-330 and 737 drivers will gladly step aside, so that the A-320/ 757 pilots can have a shot at it. Then again, maybe not.

If U ALPA goes for this, then company will indeed have broken the union and it should be decertified at U, that is if ALPA national does not withdraw services, but since all they care about is dues/money, they may not.

Hard times abound at U, but endorsing or accepting, in any way, shape or form, out of seniority furloughs, would be a disgrace of major proportions.

 

[ua767fo]

Unfortunetly, other ALPA carriers have already furloughed pilots out of seniority based upon equipment. Ryan is one good example.

[post="182609"][/post]​

You are correct. This was allowed by Ryan's contract. Pretty sad, but true. But then Ryan is a 'contract carrier', not a major.

 

[ClueByFour]

You don't need to fix an out of seniority furlough. No need to.

There wouldn't be a company left if they attempt this.

mr

[post="182619"][/post]​

Bingo.

 

[ua767fo]

Guess what? The ALPA advisors have been dead-on-accurate in their predictions and the RC4 and their backers have been 100% wrong. How could that be?

Respectfully,

USA320Pilot

[post="182632"][/post]​

USA320Pilot,

Sir, you are a smug individual. You'd rather be right, than principled. ALPA's 'advisors' may have been correct on the outcomes so far, but the RC4 are right on principle, something sir I fear that you have no comprehension of. You seem to glee at the prospect of doomsday happening just so you can say 'look at me'! Sadly, IMO, you have been wrong much more than correct. We're all still looking for your unique corporate transaction.

Im disgusted that you are an ALPA member. Please display a modicum of dignity and turn in your pin.

DENVER, CO

 

[ITRADE]

I agree he should turn in his pin and go fly for JetBlue which is likely to pay better than either US Airways or United - and without the shackles of ALPA.

Principle is a relative concept. Saddam may have been principled in his mind, but the end result was quite different. Jim Jones was principled in seeking religious freedom, but the end result was quite different.

 

[smfav8r]

You are correct. This was allowed by Ryan's contract. Pretty sad, but true. But then Ryan is a 'contract carrier', not a major.

[post="182640"][/post]​

It was allowed by Ryan's ALPA contract....which is a problem since some folks (management and their lawyers) may look at this as setting the bar...so to speak.

Just like when the UAL/U/AMR stuff was in the works....give some aircraft and pilots to AMR and throw the rest with UAL...your current equipment could dictate where you end up.

Just ask the few of the JUNIOR PAN AM folks who are currently at DAL when the senior whale drivers got nothing.

I don't like it anymore than anyone else....but just consider the possibilties after taking a look at past history.

BK is not a good thing for labor groups and contracts.

In reality Ryan is not even a contract carrier or non-sched as I put it. Ryan is just an aircraft management company with a 121 certificate!!!

 

[Dizel8]

"I agree he should turn in his pin and go fly for JetBlue which is likely to pay better than either US Airways or United - and without the shackles of ALPA."

You know, I would rather not see this gentleman at jetblue and not much chance that will happen, he is well known. Plenty of furloughed U ALPA pilots on the property.

"Just ask the few of the JUNIOR PAN AM folks who are currently at DAL when the senior whale drivers got nothing."

That was not the PAA union that sold them out, it was DAL. Being stabbed in the back by your own is a fate far worse.

 

[FM2436]

You don't need to fix an out of seniority furlough. No need to.

There wouldn't be a company left if they attempt this.

mr

[post="182619"][/post]​

Sure there'd be a company left. A company with a mainline fleet of the current numbers of A319s, 320s and 321. With Piedmont flying Dash-8s, PSA and MDA with their present RJs. And if not PSA and MDA, there's always Mesa and the likes. Mainline would operate the high passenger demand point-to-point markets from the new focus cities (CLT, PHL, DCA, BOS, PIT) and Piedmont, PSA, MDA and/or Mesa operating point-to-point between the focus cities and smaller markets that would put a 60-70% O&D load factor on a Dash-8 or 50-seat RJ with minimual connecting traffic.

Kinda like what Indepence Air is trying to do at IAD.

 

[ITRADE]

"I agree he should turn in his pin and go fly for JetBlue which is likely to pay better than either US Airways or United - and without the shackles of ALPA."

You know, I would rather not see this gentleman at jetblue and not much chance that will happen, he is well known. Plenty of furloughed U ALPA pilots on the property.

[post="182647"][/post]​

But that's not your decision...

 

[Dizel8]

"But that's not your decision..."

You migt be surprised

 

[mwereplanes]

Sure there'd be a company left. A company with a mainline fleet of the current numbers of A319s, 320s and 321. With Piedmont flying Dash-8s, PSA and MDA with their present RJs. And if not PSA and MDA, there's always Mesa and the likes. Mainline would operate the high passenger demand point-to-point markets from the new focus cities (CLT, PHL, DCA, BOS, PIT) and Piedmont, PSA, MDA and/or Mesa operating point-to-point between the focus cities and smaller markets that would put a 60-70% O&D load factor on a Dash-8 or 50-seat RJ with minimual connecting traffic.

Kinda like what Indepence Air is trying to do at IAD.

[post="182650"][/post]​

The company would not have the funds needed to survive the length of time it would take to find replacement pilots to fly their jets. Of course, there would be scabs. I can think of one right off the top of my head.

I have been dead on correct predicting what the principled men who represent 1852 pilots on this property were and are going to do. I am also telling you that this company will NOT survive an attempt to park jets and attempt to furlough out of seniority. Contrary to some unprincipled pilots here there are a majority of guys who will not stand for this type of Lorenzo-ish nonsense.

Let me make it clear:

Out of seniority furloughs = A dead USAirways. You can take that to the bank. They do not have the funds needed to withstand what the prinipled pilots of this comapny would do.

mr

 

[TheLarkAscending]

Out of seniority furloughs = A dead USAirways. You can take that to the bank. They do not have the funds needed to withstand what the principled pilots of this company would do.

Absofreakinlutely!

 

[BoeingBoy]

As some have said, this is a recipe for liquidation. The old addage that you can't shrink to profitability is alive and well - we've been the living proof since 9-11.

Shrinking sheds revenue faster than costs. So far, the difference has been made up by employee concessions, resulting in basically no change in costs. But there is a limit to how much you can reduce employee costs before training costs (and hiring costs like background checks, drug tests, etc) due to turnover more than offset any further savings.

Maybe someone needs to tell Lakefield and crew that the LCC's are not called Low Cost Carriers because of their super-low employee costs (which they don't have), but because their efficient business model results in low unit costs.

Jim