Carty - From Demands and Threats to Begs and Apologies?
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KCFlyer
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On 4/21/2003 9:40:25 PM WingNaPrayer wrote:
However, you must also explain please . . . what does ONE old fart need with a hundred million dollars?
Then ask again . . . what do 120,000 employees need with an extra thousand dollars a year each?
Hmmmmmm.
***** ***** ***** ***** *****
WNP - My numbers were totally hypothetical. But the question is this - are you willing to risk putting the company into Chapter 7 over a lousy $1,000 a year, knowing that if that happened, you''d be "conceding" 100% of your pay? My numbers were inflated quite a bit, so it would actually be less.
Carty may be the biggest a-hole to run an airline since Lorenzo. But he''s only one person. Revotes only give you the "warm fuzzies" of showing management who''s boss with your No vote. In the end, he''s still gonna have a helluva lot more cash than 120,999 other folks when the doors finally close.
I used to work for a company where the CEO got a 100% increase in salary in a year when the rank and file was limited to 3% because "times were hard". I emphasize the words "used to". I left to "pursue other options". There may be "strength in numbers" with unions, and a no vote is certainly a way of demonstrating that strength. But in the process you may be killing your careers and livlihoods. Is one guy really worth it? Are 50 guys really worth it?
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On 4/21/2003 9:40:25 PM WingNaPrayer wrote:
However, you must also explain please . . . what does ONE old fart need with a hundred million dollars?
Then ask again . . . what do 120,000 employees need with an extra thousand dollars a year each?
Hmmmmmm.
***** ***** ***** ***** *****
WNP - My numbers were totally hypothetical. But the question is this - are you willing to risk putting the company into Chapter 7 over a lousy $1,000 a year, knowing that if that happened, you''d be "conceding" 100% of your pay? My numbers were inflated quite a bit, so it would actually be less.
Carty may be the biggest a-hole to run an airline since Lorenzo. But he''s only one person. Revotes only give you the "warm fuzzies" of showing management who''s boss with your No vote. In the end, he''s still gonna have a helluva lot more cash than 120,999 other folks when the doors finally close.
I used to work for a company where the CEO got a 100% increase in salary in a year when the rank and file was limited to 3% because "times were hard". I emphasize the words "used to". I left to "pursue other options". There may be "strength in numbers" with unions, and a no vote is certainly a way of demonstrating that strength. But in the process you may be killing your careers and livlihoods. Is one guy really worth it? Are 50 guys really worth it?
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On 4/21/2003 11:29:07 PM FA Mikey wrote:
Seek, but you may not find. Negotiating in good faith is something AA needs to work on. Prior to seeing a judge AA will be required thru 1113 to work out a fair deal. If given a choice of being screwed now or later, Why is so hard to understand someone wanting later?
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On 4/21/2003 11:29:07 PM FA Mikey wrote:
Seek, but you may not find. Negotiating in good faith is something AA needs to work on. Prior to seeing a judge AA will be required thru 1113 to work out a fair deal. If given a choice of being screwed now or later, Why is so hard to understand someone wanting later?
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Because, Mikey, their "wanting later" is based upon the false assumption that bankruptcy will be a better deal.
The loan shark banks who will be loaning AA the money to get through bankruptcy have stated (yes, I know, according to the company they have stated... it's all the information we have, it's what we have to work with as a base assumption) that they will require AA to get concessions of $2.3 billion dollars from labor in order for AA to get the money it will need to operate during the Ch. 11 period. Those banks are like Bronner over at USAir for those of you following that situation. It's a very simple series of Reasoning and Critical Thinking arguments this places AA in:
"If we do not get $2.3 billion in concessions from labor, we do not get the money from the lenders."
"If we do not get the money from the lenders, this airline ceases to exist. (Chapter 7)"
Now, AA would rather avoid this chain of events. So they have come to the employees and said:
"We want to avoid having to take $2.3 billion in cuts from you guys. If we get $1.8 billion in cuts, we believe we can avoid bankruptcy."
The unions seem to be saying "No, we'd rather take our chances in bankruptcy."
Now, let's say AA files for bankruptcy and gets the DIP financing from the lenders. The company and the judge sit down with the DIP financiers (the loan sharks). The financiers say: "We need $2.3 billion in labor cuts to guarantee our investment." The judge says to the company: "Develop a set of cuts which will equal $2.3 billion." The company will then take those cuts to the union and say: "This is now what we need to survive." If the unions say "No" at that point (which you know they will), one of two things will happen, neither of them good.
1) The company will go back to the judge and say "We tried to negotiate, but the unions turned it down." The judge can then abrogate contracts, and impose new guidelines, to protect the investment of the DIP financiers.
2) The DIP financiers can pull their money and American dissolves as a company, everyone is put out of work, and the assets are sold off.
Now would someone please explain to me how $2.3 billion in cuts is better than $1.8 billion in cuts? Because that is the part of the argument "It would be better in bankruptcy." that I just don't get.
TANSTAAFL
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On 4/22/2003 10:13:54 AM BDLDFW wrote:
It''s better because the unions say so, and the extra 500M is apparently worth their satisfaction of snubbing Carty.
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On 4/22/2003 10:13:54 AM BDLDFW wrote:
It''s better because the unions say so, and the extra 500M is apparently worth their satisfaction of snubbing Carty.
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Actually, the union leadership had agreed to the T/As. It''s some of the rank-and-file who don''t.
Dos anyone really believe that Don Carty or any of the the other members of senior management will be significantly hurt in any way if this airline goes under? News flash: They won''t. They will all get jobs somewhere else. Heck, Stephen Wolf ran TWO airlines into the ground and I believe somebody just hired him.
So the management will be able to find jobs; the question then is, what will all the employees do? Even McDonalds is laying off in this economy...
TANSTAAFL
A
ART
Guest
Remember the Catholic Cardinals' of Boston and Los Angeles and others, all liars and deceivers, even to this day.
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We are sorry, we will work with law enforcement all the way, this will never happen again. Oh, again, we are sorry, we will insure that law enforcement is the first to know.
.
Wait, Wait, Wait - You know we think we have a better plan, we were involved in this..... i am truly sorry.
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WEll Mr. Carty is a sorry AAs himself. I am sorry, please forgive me for the distress I have caused you.
.
Wait - Mr. Carty is receiving an honorary degree at a Catholic University, St. Louis University, Saturday, May 17th. No Effin shame, no nothing, just steal from YOU, put YOU on the street, take away YOUR pension (do you really have one), take away your medical benefits when you retire (nearly) and screw over your life so much you dont even know th half of it. Until he is forced, he will NEVER reveal half of his treasure and your future pain. Saddam Hussein all over again, Hitler all over again, you name the dictator and he is him. "I'm sorry, so sorry." BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS
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Let me rephrase that FULLY FUNDED
So you are saying that even when things were going to hell AA officers dreamed up a plan that they would be in their $$$$$$$ bunkers while we die on their behalf.
American Airlines officers and NOT the employees are to blame for this entire mess. They fund a GUARENTEED pension plan, while the labor groups are unsure if theirs will ever exist. The officers and NOT the employees are GUARENTEED after departure medical, dental, prescription plans, travel, LIFETIME Admirals Club membership in some cases and a ton of other benefits.
No concessions should be made by any labor group until their pension is secure as the executive group. If this means the 45+ plan is removed with “NO†chance of AMR renewing it OR if the labor groups involved have theirs FUNDED and GUARENTEED, that’s great.
Mr. Carty, comment?
.
We are sorry, we will work with law enforcement all the way, this will never happen again. Oh, again, we are sorry, we will insure that law enforcement is the first to know.
.
Wait, Wait, Wait - You know we think we have a better plan, we were involved in this..... i am truly sorry.
.
WEll Mr. Carty is a sorry AAs himself. I am sorry, please forgive me for the distress I have caused you.
.
Wait - Mr. Carty is receiving an honorary degree at a Catholic University, St. Louis University, Saturday, May 17th. No Effin shame, no nothing, just steal from YOU, put YOU on the street, take away YOUR pension (do you really have one), take away your medical benefits when you retire (nearly) and screw over your life so much you dont even know th half of it. Until he is forced, he will NEVER reveal half of his treasure and your future pain. Saddam Hussein all over again, Hitler all over again, you name the dictator and he is him. "I'm sorry, so sorry." BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS
.
Let me rephrase that FULLY FUNDED
So you are saying that even when things were going to hell AA officers dreamed up a plan that they would be in their $$$$$$$ bunkers while we die on their behalf.
American Airlines officers and NOT the employees are to blame for this entire mess. They fund a GUARENTEED pension plan, while the labor groups are unsure if theirs will ever exist. The officers and NOT the employees are GUARENTEED after departure medical, dental, prescription plans, travel, LIFETIME Admirals Club membership in some cases and a ton of other benefits.
No concessions should be made by any labor group until their pension is secure as the executive group. If this means the 45+ plan is removed with “NO†chance of AMR renewing it OR if the labor groups involved have theirs FUNDED and GUARENTEED, that’s great.
Mr. Carty, comment?
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On 4/22/2003 9:40:38 AM WXGuesser wrote:
Now would someone please explain to me how $2.3 billion in cuts is better than $1.8 billion in cuts? Because that is the part of the argument "It would be better in bankruptcy." that I just don''t get.
TANSTAAFL
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On 4/22/2003 9:40:38 AM WXGuesser wrote:
Now would someone please explain to me how $2.3 billion in cuts is better than $1.8 billion in cuts? Because that is the part of the argument "It would be better in bankruptcy." that I just don''t get.
TANSTAAFL
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It''s better because the unions say so, and the extra 500M is apparently worth their satisfaction of snubbing Carty.
A
ART
Guest
EffU Carty
Let me rephrase that FULLY FUNDED
So you are saying that even when things were going to hell AA officers dreamed up a plan that they would be in their $$$$$$$ bunkers while we die on their behalf.
American Airlines officers and NOT the employees are to blame for this entire mess. They fund a GUARENTEED pension plan, while the labor groups are unsure if theirs will ever exist. The officers and NOT the employees are GUARENTEED after departure medical, dental, prescription plans, travel, LIFETIME Admirals Club membership in some cases and a ton of other benefits.
No concessions should be made by any labor group until their pension is secure as the executive group. If this means the 45+ plan is removed with “NO†chance of AMR renewing it OR if the labor groups involved have theirs FUNDED and GUARENTEED, that’s great.
Mr. Carty, comment?
Let me rephrase that FULLY FUNDED
So you are saying that even when things were going to hell AA officers dreamed up a plan that they would be in their $$$$$$$ bunkers while we die on their behalf.
American Airlines officers and NOT the employees are to blame for this entire mess. They fund a GUARENTEED pension plan, while the labor groups are unsure if theirs will ever exist. The officers and NOT the employees are GUARENTEED after departure medical, dental, prescription plans, travel, LIFETIME Admirals Club membership in some cases and a ton of other benefits.
No concessions should be made by any labor group until their pension is secure as the executive group. If this means the 45+ plan is removed with “NO†chance of AMR renewing it OR if the labor groups involved have theirs FUNDED and GUARENTEED, that’s great.
Mr. Carty, comment?
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On 4/22/2003 11:36:10 AM Imagolfer wrote:
Art,
Take a deep breath, relax....and remember to take your Valium!
It would be better to think with a level head, and right now you are not making sense.
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Really - is Art ok? He''s posted the same paragraph (about "fully funded") on about a dozen active threads.On 4/22/2003 11:36:10 AM Imagolfer wrote:
Art,
Take a deep breath, relax....and remember to take your Valium!
It would be better to think with a level head, and right now you are not making sense.
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