Can''t We File Bankruptcy Also?

[upsilon]

RV4, Forget about "legal hounds". Here are the suggested 'comments and opinions' of an airline customer, taxpayer, and citizen.

Why don't you tell us what you are asking for when you "stage an industry wide walkout"..."to show who is really in charge".

I do "think about the Venezuela National Oil Strike"; but it was against the government and the president. I know you don't like Bush; but is that who you are blaming for "this mess". BTW, that strike doesn't seem to have been very successful; but it certainly has contributed to the jet fuel price.

You ask, "What is there really to fear if we decided to show everyone as an industry wide group who is really in charge?" After watching what happened to UAL, I think many of your union colleagues might have second thoughts, if not downright fear.

In your posts, all you bring up is "concerns" and fuzzy rhetoric. Would you please set forth something concrete. In all of the labor negotiations in which I have been involved there are grievances, demands, etc.

What specifically are you are asking airline labor to go on a General Strike to obtain?

 

[ss278]

[blockquote]
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On 3/10/2003 9:01:00 PM Senor Pelon wrote:

The strike in the summer of 1966 involved 5 carriers: EA,NE,TW,UA and NA. It lasted for 43 days.
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[/blockquote]


I remember it well. Many of the "local service" carriers received a temporary exemption from the rules as to where they could fly, and were granted access to some nonstop routes. Frankly, in some markets in which I travelled at the time, the service was better than before the strike.

 

[410OhOne]

[blockquote]
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On 3/10/2003 10:00:09 PM upsilon wrote:



What specifically are you are asking airline labor to go on a General Strike to obtain?

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[/blockquote]

If I could put in my two cents on what I am asking for. I am asking for accountability. On both parts, organized labor and management. Anybody who does not believe that every carrier is using the events of 9/11 to break contracts, lower cost, fatten the books, lower the bottom line, has not had their eyes open for the last 18 months. Cowboy George and Carty, as well as others have an agenda. Conspiracy, call it what you want. So what do I want? Simple, I have a skill, as do you, and I am ready to put that skill in my pocket till GW, Carty, and the rest of the corporate world (proven guilty already) let up on this reign of corporate terrorism being brought down on the working class. RV4 I am with you and understand exactly what you are saying. The people who don't are the ones lining up at the pumps tommorrow paying $2.00 a gallon with open wallets.

 

[KC tirechanger]

RV4,You sure got a lot of attention here! Think you may have struke a nerve?????

 

[sfo2laxfsc]

who in the He-L took this type of job for the flight bennies?

its the ONLY reason i work for aa!!!!

 

[mga707]

[blockquote]
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On 3/10/2003 9:01:00 PM Senor Pelon wrote:

The strike in the summer of 1966 involved 5 carriers: EA,NE,TW,UA and NA. It lasted for 43 days.
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[/blockquote]

Whoops--guess I made it out to be a even bigger than it actually was! Like a fish story, it got bigger over time
Still, that was a big chunk of the 1966 market, with three of what were then the 'Big Four' (AA, EA, TW, UA) grounded.
The Eastern Seaboard would've been especially hard hit--with EA, NA, and NE all out, forget about getting from the Northeast to Florida!
Really surprised that NW wasn't involved, as they seemed to be taking a strike about every summer or two back then--and still making money, thanks to the 'Mutual Aid Pact' in effect in those years!
I did get the length of the strike pretty close--give me credit for that. [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/2.gif']

 

[KCFlyer]

[blockquote]
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On 3/10/2003 5:15:31 PM RV4 wrote:

[blockquote]
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On 3/10/2003 4:34:40 PM KCFlyer wrote:

Didn't the air traffic controllers try to show the world "who was in charge" back in the early 80's?
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[/blockquote]

You think o'le Bush could replace 100's of thousands of airline workers? How many ATC's were there anyway?

I call your bluff!
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[/blockquote]

The air traffic controllers didn't think Reagan could replace them either. He did, and while the airline industry was temporarily impacted - life went on.

You are failing to recognize that as amazing as it might seem, there are still a lot of folks who'd like to work at the airlines - even in the shape they are in. You'd be fired, they'd be hired, and you'd be left at home to stew about the scab ba$tards who "took" your job. Also, I doubt that you would get industry wide support...there are a lot of folks who cannot go without a paycheck, and I doubt that the union "strike funds" would last much longer than a day if they had to support hundreds of thousands of airline workers.

And I doubt that the employees of an airline that is showing profits, no matter how small, would be willing to show their managment "who is in charge". Southwest didn't lay off a single employee in the aftermath of 9/11 - they haven't asked for concessions, and they have renegotiated contracts with some workgroups, granting them raises. Do you think that they would join in your fight? No - What would happen is that their 62% load factors would shoot up to about 96%.

 

[Buck]

Of course there will not be industry wide support. The AFL-CIO would never consider anything like this.





















(French)

 

[upsilon]

410OhOne responds: "I am asking for accountability" and adds: "Anybody who does not believe that every carrier is using the events of 9/11 to break contracts, lower cost, fatten the books, lower the bottom line, has not had their eyes open for the last 18 months."

Sure! Right after 9/11 Bush and Carty entered into a "conspiracy" to hide the fact that people are still flying in the same numbers as before; but AA is cutting the schedules to save on wages, lower CSM and cramming more people into less metal to fatten RSM. All of this is fattening the bottom line; but B&C have conspired to hide it from the stock market so investors have bailed out and the stock is now worth $1.75 as I write this.

MY eyes have been, and still are, wide open; but some people have such narrow views that that they see nothing but what they want to see.

BTW, I can’t seem to find any “broken contractsâ€. I expect to see some “renegotiated†contracts; otherwise the BK court will “nullify†them; unless of course, the court kicks over a rock and exposes the vast, probably right-wing, conspiracy responsible for “this messâ€â€¦.. oh, and the $2.00+/gallon fuel price that we people at the pump with our wallets open don’t see!

Since Carty has to fill up his planes at fuel pumps priced twice as high as 18 months ago, I guess it must be Bush alone that is behind this part of the so-called conspiracy.

 

[410OhOne]

[blockquote]
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On 3/11/2003 10:00:42 AM Buck wrote:

Of course there will not be industry wide support. The AFL-CIO would never consider anything like this.

(French)
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[/blockquote]

Of course they wont. Why should they. But I ask you this..did the AFL-CIO give you your skill? Better yet are they going to provide for your family in about 2 months?

I dont need the AFL-CIO's support on this to walk in as a group of individuals who are sick and tired of this government/corporate machine and hand my ticket back to the FAA and this government and say "Now lets see your transportation system work!!".

Really ticked here. How bout you?

 

[Bob Owens]

While its true that Reagan did replace the Air Traffic Controllers after several years the main reason why the Strike failed is that ALPA did their best to screw the Air Traffic Controllers and none of the other unions did anything to assist PATCO. It was a mistake of tragic proportions for the labor movement. We could only hope that a lesson was learned. The strike was the best thing to happen for the old-line carriers as it allowed them to reduce operations without giving the upstarts the opportunity to expand into their routes. It allowed them to shelve the money losing routes and keep the most profitable ones.

As far as a judge fining us for not going to work, I don’t know how he could, we do not work for the government and the airlines are actively seeking to break our agreements. The union signs the contract, not individual workers, at worst the company could fire us, since the courts already allow companies to permanently replace strikers there isnt much difference.A judge could fine the union, as in the case of the APA- that I believe that they still have not paid, but as far as fining individuals we could probably contest that under the 14th amendment. Clearly a strike like this is a defensive move, not to make gains but to preserve what we have.
I say lets do it and see where it takes us, if a couple of hundred thousand people walk off the job what are they going to do? Jail all of us? Oh well then they can feed my family. Fine us? So none of us pay, that brings us back to put us all in jail. I could just see the news as thousands of kids are crying as the government hauls off thousands of workers to jail, still wont make the planes fly will it?
In 1966, back when some labor leaders had a pair, the NYC Transit System went out on strike. A judge ordered then President of the union Mike Quill to end the strike; his reply to the judge as he went to jail was for him to “drop dead in his long black robesâ€￾. The strike lasted 12 days, the city was paralyzed and even with a population of eight million people the Transit Authority could not replace the workers. One critical difference between PATCO and the airlines is that PATCO workers were government employees. Typically government work is top heavy with supervision due to the fact that governments do not have to show a profit. This left the government better able to withstand a strike. This is not the case with private industries such as the airlines. If all the unionized workers walked out the airlines would cease to operate. The airlines already let that out when they released all the facts and figures to employees during the lead up to the 1997 APA pilots strike. Eoleson, the company admitted then that the strike would bankrupt the company, which at the time was making record profits, in I believe two weeks. Were they lying then about their capabilities then or is your assumption about a walkout simply curing the overcapacity problem lacking merit? Do you really believe that the Airline could operate if the pilots, mechanics, Flight Attendants and other ground workers went on strike? If they could then its no surprise that the industry is in trouble. I see, the airline industry has such compassion for us that they are keeping us employed even though they do not need us, you guys can do it all without us right?

 

[RV4]

[blockquote]
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On 3/11/2003 440 PM KCFlyer wrote:

Naw RV4 - do whatever you like - it's a free country. You'll be screwing yourself worse than any of us. I will be sure to urge my congressman to vote NO should they ask for taxpayers to bail out the airline industry because of a mass walkout.
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[/blockquote]


Sniffle, Sniffle, you mean your going to deprive me of another Government Handout at the expense of the working man taxpayer. Darn the luck!

When you say "worse than any of us", who is that anyway?

 

[RV4]

Isn't it interesting that the folks on this baord trying to scare us about any collective actions are non-union employees?

It is also interesting that certain questions are never answered by these folks.

 

[Bob Owens]

[blockquote]
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On 3/11/2003 1:36:03 PM upsilon wrote:

410OhOne responds: "I am asking for accountability" and adds: "Anybody who does not believe that every carrier is using the events of 9/11 to break contracts, lower cost, fatten the books, lower the bottom line, has not had their eyes open for the last 18 months."

Sure! Right after 9/11 Bush and Carty entered into a "conspiracy" to hide the fact that people are still flying in the same numbers as before; but AA is cutting the schedules to save on wages, lower CSM and cramming more people into less metal to fatten RSM. All of this is fattening the bottom line; but B&C have conspired to hide it from the stock market so investors have bailed out and the stock is now worth $1.75 as I write this.

MY eyes have been, and still are, wide open; but some people have such narrow views that that they see nothing but what they want to see.

BTW, I can’t seem to find any “broken contractsâ€. I expect to see some “renegotiated†contracts; otherwise the BK court will “nullify†them; unless of course, the court kicks over a rock and exposes the vast, probably right-wing, conspiracy responsible for “this messâ€â€¦.. oh, and the $2.00+/gallon fuel price that we people at the pump with our wallets open don’t see!

Since Carty has to fill up his planes at fuel pumps priced twice as high as 18 months ago, I guess it must be Bush alone that is behind this part of the so-called conspiracy.

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[/blockquote]

If the courts are mandating that wages be slashed as with United then why cant they make the Oil companies slash thier prices? Mr Bush and his buddies have made a killing off this war already, without firing a single shot. Wait till the shooting starts, they will make a killing using thier oil profits buying up all the stocks.
410OHONE has probably been around a while and has been through the routine before. Different setting but the plot is the same, "Crisis, desperately needed LONG TERM concessions sought from workers, miraculous recovery follows", saw it in 82- "Unprecidented Losses""industry permanently changed, airlines seek massive concessions from workers",PATCO got the blame for that one, 92- Desert Storm- "Unprecidented losses", "industry permanently changed" "Lost more money this year than earned in previous 50 year history of the industry, airlines seek massive concessions from workers", now we have Sept 11,"Unprecidented Losses""industry permanently changed,and you guessed it-airlines seek massive concessions from workers ". Following 82 and 92 the industry gained massive concessions and both times they went on to make record profits, same script with a few different twists, the opening scene changes but the final scene is the same. Its Deja-vu all over again. Or is it?

 

[KCFlyer]

Naw RV4 - do whatever you like - it's a free country. You'll be screwing yourself worse than any of us. I will be sure to urge my congressman to vote NO should they ask for taxpayers to bail out the airline industry because of a mass walkout.