British Air / JAL

[AANOTOK]

I will keep from posting any links or articles because I'm sure we all have seen or can find them.
But, after BA's recent ruling by the courts that they cannot strike and JAL current and former employees
agreeing to a 30-50% pension cut (which by the way the government stated it would force upon them if they didn't
accept), doesn't bold well for the future of "ALL" airline employees. Really is funny how these particular airlines
that AA is heavily involved in just dealt there employees crushing blows. Get ready fellows, things ain't getting
any better in our back yard!! <_<

 

[jimntx]

Gee, you must be new. AMR needs no help from foreign airlines in denying raises and benefits to its employees while awarding bonusses to the executives.

 

[MERV]

Gee, you must be new. AMR needs no help from foreign airlines in denying raises and benefits to its employees while awarding bonusses to the executives.

Its very sad that world is using our example on how screw the employee over!!!!!!!
Most of worlds airlines jobs were well paying jobs until now. Since they learn how to screw us over. I Don't understand why other industries can raise their prices to offset any increase on their final product but airlines can't

 

[FWAAA]

I Don't understand why other industries can raise their prices to offset any increase on their final product but airlines can't.

I know you're going to disagree and that you probably won't like hearing it, but the reality is that passenger air travel is a frivolous activity; most flights are not actually required. Accordingly, most passengers are extremely price-sensitive. The car is still your big competitor. So is just staying home. People are willing to fly a lot at cheap prices. Not so much at higher prices. Higher gas prices? Gotta fill the tank to get to work. Higher food prices? Gotta feed the kids. Higher airfare? Don't HAVE to fly on vacation. Simple as that.

The post-war growth in air travel was impressive, but nothing compared to the post-deregulation boom. Until 1978, most air travelers were either wealthy or they wore suits for the man who paid for his tickets. Most flying was done on OPM. Today, AA still relies on OPM for much of its revenue. And OPM often has strict controls. Think employees at USA's richest companies fly First Class? Guess again. Microsoft and Wal-Mart employees fly coach except on the longest flights. I know employees at both who upgrade when they can, but on employer-paid coach tickets. Raise ticket prices and people would fly less.

Look what happened right after deregulation: The steep rise in oil prices began. Iran overran the US Embassy and took the hostages. OPEC drove oil from about $12/bbl to about $41/bbl. Things didn't really improve until 1985 when the bottom began to fall out of the worldwide oil market. Tickets were affordable and demand surged. AA and other legacy airlines grew like gangbusters, ordering hundreds of new (not replacement) airplanes. By 2000, AA's fleet had grown to over 700 mainline planes. How many did AA have in 1979?

Don't need to recount this decade's challenges - but they made the previous 20 years look like great times. Sure, by 2006 or so the industry's revenues had recovered from the horrible events of September 11, 2001, but by then, oil was heading skyward to its peak of $147 in July, 2008. Now you have tens of thousands of employees, none of whom make as much as they'd like, and demand for paid F and J (from the companies that used to pay for it) has largely dried up. This year, AMR's revenue will be about $4 billion less than last year. Fuel is down about $3 billion, but that leaves this year's anticipated loss about a billion dollars more than last year. Raise prices? I'm certain AA and others have tried. Poor management? Sure. But losses at nearly every USA-based airline plus SQ and BA and CX and others convinces me that it's an industry-wide problem. Southwest might have to massage the year-end numbers to avoid posting a loss this year.

Other industries can usually raise prices to cover their higher costs. Airlines have been much less successful at it. You're in a discretionary industry, and although I like flying, it's not as addictive as alcohol or tobacco.

 

[MERV]

I know you're going to disagree and that you probably won't like hearing it, but the reality is that passenger air travel is a frivolous activity; most flights are not actually required. Accordingly, most passengers are extremely price-sensitive. The car is still your big competitor. So is just staying home. People are willing to fly a lot at cheap prices. Not so much at higher prices. Higher gas prices? Gotta fill the tank to get to work. Higher food prices? Gotta feed the kids. Higher airfare? Don't HAVE to fly on vacation. Simple as that.

The post-war growth in air travel was impressive, but nothing compared to the post-deregulation boom. Until 1978, most air travelers were either wealthy or they wore suits for the man who paid for his tickets. Most flying was done on OPM. Today, AA still relies on OPM for much of its revenue. And OPM often has strict controls. Think employees at USA's richest companies fly First Class? Guess again. Microsoft and Wal-Mart employees fly coach except on the longest flights. I know employees at both who upgrade when they can, but on employer-paid coach tickets. Raise ticket prices and people would fly less.

Look what happened right after deregulation: The steep rise in oil prices began. Iran overran the US Embassy and took the hostages. OPEC drove oil from about $12/bbl to about $41/bbl. Things didn't really improve until 1985 when the bottom began to fall out of the worldwide oil market. Tickets were affordable and demand surged. AA and other legacy airlines grew like gangbusters, ordering hundreds of new (not replacement) airplanes. By 2000, AA's fleet had grown to over 700 mainline planes. How many did AA have in 1979?

Don't need to recount this decade's challenges - but they made the previous 20 years look like great times. Sure, by 2006 or so the industry's revenues had recovered from the horrible events of September 11, 2001, but by then, oil was heading skyward to its peak of $147 in July, 2008. Now you have tens of thousands of employees, none of whom make as much as they'd like, and demand for paid F and J (from the companies that used to pay for it) has largely dried up. This year, AMR's revenue will be about $4 billion less than last year. Fuel is down about $3 billion, but that leaves this year's anticipated loss about a billion dollars more than last year. Raise prices? I'm certain AA and others have tried. Poor management? Sure. But losses at nearly every USA-based airline plus SQ and BA and CX and others convinces me that it's an industry-wide problem. Southwest might have to massage the year-end numbers to avoid posting a loss this year.

Other industries can usually raise prices to cover their higher costs. Airlines have been much less successful at it. You're in a discretionary industry, and although I like flying, it's not as addictive as alcohol or tobacco.

I agree with some of your points but are you telling me theirs no hope for us who work in the industry to see a brighter future!!!!!! Thats why upper management is their for to find ways to increase revenue but without asking employees share the pain!!!!!!!! You tell me Southwest was able to increase fares by few dollars but AA cant do the same to offset their cost and lost of paxs!!!!!!!

 

[FWAAA]

I'm not saying there's no hope, but to me, the future of airline employees does not look bright.

Label me a management apologist, but I applaud the ones whose airlines haven't gone out of business. The ones whose airlines failed - now in my book, they were the ineffective management. It would be great if management could somehow increase revenues to a profitable level without driving away business, but their collective failure to do so indicates to me that they're dealing with market forces out of their control. In my view, upper management has performed OK if they've been able to keep their employees employed since deregulation. TWA, Pan Am, Eastern and many others didn't make that grade.

All airlines were able to increase fares somewhat in the later part of this decade (until the economy melted down last year yields increased about 30% off their lows of the early part of the decade), but none were able to increase them enough to generate really healthy profits. Even Southwest has posted a net loss for the first nine months of 2009, and I'm prepared for WN to report its first annual loss in 35 years.

 

[AANOTOK]

If you cut enough capacity out of the airlines (unfortunately that means layoffs) you would be able to set prices at a level to where airlines could be profitable. But you know what, the minute the airlines discuss capacity cuts and price increases with each other, then you have the government and the public crying "PRICE COLLUSION". People are going to fly, some must fly.
But without the airlines being able to sell their product a at profit, the cycle of employees subsidizing the flying public will continue.

And for what it's worth FWAAA, management may get the credit for keeping their employees employed, but they are still making millions while the "employed employees" are the ones who actually made the sacrifices and deserve the credit.
Although still "employed", they struggle while the likes of Arpey, Horton etc.....do not!

 

[MERV]

If you cut enough capacity out of the airlines (unfortunately that means layoffs) you would be able to set prices at a level to where airlines could be profitable. But you know what, the minute the airlines discuss capacity cuts and price increases with each other, then you have the government and the public crying "PRICE COLLUSION". People are going to fly, some must fly.
But without the airlines being able to sell their product a at profit, the cycle of employees subsidizing the flying public will continue.

And for what it's worth FWAAA, management may get the credit for keeping their employees employed, but they are still making millions while the "employed employees" are the ones who actually made the sacrifices and deserve the credit.
Although still "employed", they struggle while the likes of Arpey, Horton etc.....do not!

It works to certain extend when cutting capacity because you have to pay for A/Cs to be stored and if the airline owns the A/Cs the payments are still due. So loosing millions dollars for stored A/Cs. Also that doesn't include the lost of market share and the lost revenue!!!!!!! Less revenue less capital to pay debt!!!! Don't forget that employees layoff already happen so they are understaff anyhow so that don't account unless they start closing stations down!!!! unless they do what DL,NW,UA,CO and US did bankruptcy!!!!

 

[MERV]

I'm not saying there's no hope, but to me, the future of airline employees does not look bright.

Label me a management apologist, but I applaud the ones whose airlines haven't gone out of business. The ones whose airlines failed - now in my book, they were the ineffective management. It would be great if management could somehow increase revenues to a profitable level without driving away business, but their collective failure to do so indicates to me that they're dealing with market forces out of their control. In my view, upper management has performed OK if they've been able to keep their employees employed since deregulation. TWA, Pan Am, Eastern and many others didn't make that grade.

All airlines were able to increase fares somewhat in the later part of this decade (until the economy melted down last year yields increased about 30% off their lows of the early part of the decade), but none were able to increase them enough to generate really healthy profits. Even Southwest has posted a net loss for the first nine months of 2009, and I'm prepared for WN to report its first annual loss in 35 years.

Those CEOs ARE VERY SMART INDIVIDUALS!!!!
Yea by using the bankruptcy laws thats how they survived!!!!!!
They're still in the same boat loosing billions!!!!!!
Why do you think many airlines around the world are somewhat regulate and theirs no real open skies deals!!!!
Perfect example Jim Ream the new VP of M&E worked ExpresJet Airlines. He deicide to fly solo. Before I left the company I told my friends from Expressjet that it wasn't going to work. it only last about 1yr and airline division closed down!!!!! He asked his employees share the pain!!!!!

 

[Bear96]

If you cut enough capacity out of the airlines (unfortunately that means layoffs) you would be able to set prices at a level to where airlines could be profitable.

True, but there is always some idiot waiting in the wings who is itching to burn a few million dollars on a crazy dream to start a new airline, which offsets any capacity decreases the saner airlines would like to implement.

 

[damajagua]

True, but there is always some idiot waiting in the wings who is itching to burn a few million dollars on a crazy dream to start a new airline, which offsets any capacity decreases the saner airlines would like to implement.

Yes and the perfect example of that in recent history is Jetblue
and Virgin America.

Any capacity that the majors have cut in the last few years
new carriers come in replace the service that was cut.
Its a vicious cycle.

 

[MERV]

Yes and the perfect example of that in recent history is Jetblue
and Virgin America.

Any capacity that the majors have cut in the last few years
new carriers come in replace the service that was cut.
Its a vicious cycle.

If your talking about AA's capacity cuts were plan old TWAs over lapping routes!!!!!!
If your talking UA it was loosing to much money to keep up all that capacity in some of the cities and they dropped some them also. They rather loss the battle than company.
New DL will also cut capacity to bring the system into a more controllable cost and also gain Asian market!!!!!! They got a deal from the merger!!!!! They are the first major American Carrier to be global carrier since PA and TW!!!!!
Also Jetblue came before the break down in air travel and they don't have the network that majors do and they travel to some major cities but their majority of their cities are secondary airports. the same with Virgin America they fly to certain cities. What happen now is these airlines gave us more options for travel. so those major cities that have major carriers now have more options to use travel to leisure cities!!!!! Most of the majors never cut capacity in major cities now that they're cutting capacity in those cities SW is now trying get slot in those cities because they know that majors are in a wake state!!!!!!

 

[Hopeful]

AA/TPG better sweeten their offer....It's almost over!



http://www.reuters.com/article/idCNTOE5BH08D20091218?rpc=44

 

[frontline]

Come on, we know better than this. What foreign carriers do with their workforces has zero relevance to us. Foreign carriers can only own 49% of US airlines (capped at 25% of voting shares). And obviously foreign courts have no jurisdiction in the USA.