Bankruptcy Would have been worse?

[AAmech]

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On 5/27/2003 8:58:57 AM Bob Owens wrote:

As far as the layoffs, if you were in this industry for a while you would know that layoffs were always a part of the cycle. Concessions like this were not.

I remember working with both AA and UAL laid off guys at Capitol Air in 1981. The AA guys had around 10 years and the UAL guys had as much as 25 years. All who chose to go back eventually did. The same thing would have happened now. In fact the layoffs are less severe now than they were in 1981, as a percentage. The Unions in this industry sold out the workers.

AA was in much better shape than UAL before SEpt 11, yet we lost more than they did without even going into BK. Why, if our company was in better shape would we are fared worse than UAL did in BK,excluding the fact of who we had for representation of course?
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Wake up Bob!! This is no normal layoff cycle going on at UAL. THIS IS JOB ELIMINATION!!!! THERE IS NO RECALL BACK TO INDY AND OAKLAND!! THEY ARE HISTORY!! THOUSANDS GONE!! If you have 12 or `13 years seniority you'll probably get a recall sometime as people retire but for the rest of those poor bastards are screwed! I'm sure they'd be more than willing to give up their Longevity pay for a chance at recall!

 

[AAmech]

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On 5/27/2003 3:54:01 PM FWAAA wrote:

Didn''t UAL just eliminate all overhaul by closing (permanently) the IND and OAK maintenance bases?
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They will keep one open in SFO.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

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On 5/27/2003 11:51:11 AM eolesen wrote:

My wife, who was laid off in January lost the following:

All paid holidays
All shift premiums
All paid vacation
All sick time
All benefits, although COBRA was an option at about $500+ per month
All ID travel

Given the option of making your $60K vs $65K, I think she''d opt for the $60K.

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Eric;
How much Co. sen. did (Mrs.) eoleson have ??

NH/BB''s

 

[AAmech]

They sure did! And if your seniority is less than 1990, YOU ARE HISTORY!!!! But the amfa people say they got a much better deal! What scares me is this is amfa''s MO. Sell out thousands of your fellow mechanics with permanant job losses just for a few points better pay rate. Look at their NWA contract. They made concessions while NWA was making record profits! NWA has reduced their mechanic headcount by almost 60% while flying the same schedule. They are ruining our once proud profession!

 

[Oliver Stone''s Apprentice]

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On 5/27/2003 4:03:05 PM AAmech wrote:

They will keep one open in SFO.

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They''re keeping a base operation at SFO, but didn''t a lot of the overhaul go to OAK and IND when they opened up? IIRC, most of what SFO handles today is non-overhaul short visit stuff.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

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On 5/27/2003 5:02:03 PM NewHampshire Black Bears wrote:

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On 5/27/2003 11:51:11 AM eolesen wrote:

My wife, who was laid off in January lost the following:

All paid holidays
All shift premiums
All paid vacation
All sick time
All benefits, although COBRA was an option at about $500+ per month
All ID travel

Given the option of making your $60K vs $65K, I think she''d opt for the $60K.

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Eric;
How much Co. sen. did (Mrs.) eoleson have ??

NH/BB''s

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Correction;
How much Co. sen."DOES" (Mrs.) eoleson have ??

NH/BB''s

 

[Bob Owens]

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On 5/27/2003 9:52:47 AM FWAAA wrote:


You mean the end of the war in Iraq, along with lower oil prices (because the war was ending), the revelation that SARS was a media-created panic (as opposed to the worldwide epidemic they pretended it was), and the recovery in air traffic (because the war was ending)?? You mean those clouds that parted?? Yep - GWB had it in for the AA unions and orchestrated the whole thing to help out his friends at AA.

Nope - no delusions here.

I wasn''t a no voter or a yes voter, and I predicted the positive news, too.

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The fact is that we kept saying that the term was too long. The company took advantage of all the BS and the unions ran scared. We should have held out, now it will be five years of war between the company and its workers. The company will insist on keeping this punative contract and the workers will pretend to work. The company has already started with their threats, nobody cares, the planes come in broke, they go out broke, or maybe not. Have you seen the performance numbers systemwide for Aircraft maint? And this is with all those spares! Sooner or later AA will not be keeping 5 to 7 spare airplanes sitting around. Arpeys BS about putting the past behind us is impossible because every week we are reminded, every holiday that we dont get paid for we are reminded. We should be thinking about how to fix airplanes but most are preoccupied with all they lost, and this is reflected on the performance numbers. This is how Pan Am went. The operation got less and less productive as the wages went down and down.

 

[RUM@AA]

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On 5/27/2003 4:00:58 PM AAmech wrote:


They sure did!  And if your seniority is less than 1990, YOU ARE HISTORY!!!!   But the amfa people say they got a much better deal!    What scares me is this is amfa''s MO.  Sell out thousands of your fellow mechanics with permanant job losses just for a few points better pay rate.  Look at their NWA contract.  They made concessions while NWA was making record profits!   NWA has reduced their mechanic headcount by almost 60% while flying the same schedule.  They are ruining our once proud profession!

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Using your line of thinking, we should all just take OSM pay and re-call all layed off employees, hell AA could even start hiring again.
YOU and your ilk have allowed AA to DE-VALUE the profession of Aircraft Maintenance Technician. YOU are the ones ruining our once proud profession by deluting it with unskilled, under-paid OSMs. I would NEVER suggest that my sons go into this profession because of what YOU have done.

When NWA returns to profitablity, their Mechs will be called back at the current pay scale which, as you know, is WAY above ours.
And don''t say they never will because you have no crystal ball.

 

[FWAAA]

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On 5/27/2003 10:13:45 PM Bob Owens wrote:

The fact is that we kept saying that the term was too long. The company took advantage of all the BS and the unions ran scared. We should have held out, now it will be five years of war between the company and its workers.  The company will insist on keeping this punative contract and the workers will pretend to work. The company has already started with their threats, nobody cares, the planes come in broke, they go out broke, or maybe not. Have you seen the performance numbers systemwide for Aircraft maint? And this is with all those spares! Sooner or later AA will not be keeping 5 to 7 spare airplanes sitting around. Arpeys BS about putting the past behind us is impossible because every week we are reminded, every holiday that we dont get paid for we are reminded.  We should be thinking about how to fix airplanes but most are preoccupied with all they lost, and this is reflected on the performance numbers. This is how Pan Am went. The operation got less and less productive as the wages went down and down.

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OK, so the term is too long for your taste. Would it have been significantly shorter in Ch 11??

Did the UAL employees get one or two or three year concessions??

And if there are any mechanics out there who can''t focus on fixing airplanes because they can''t get over the loss of triple time for a few holidays and some other paycuts - then it''s time for them to get help thru the EAP.

And if they refuse to get help - then they must be fired so that competent mechanics can take their place. I''ll bet some permanently laid off UAL mechanics would love the opportunity.

Besides - would these slackers and losers have been any happier if AA had filed Ch 11?? Or would they be sitting around moping about everything they lost??

 

[WXGuesser]

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On 5/28/2003 10:27:14 AM FWAAA wrote:​

 

[AAmech]

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On 5/28/2003 1211 AM RUM@AA wrote:

When NWA returns to profitablity, their Mechs will be called back at the current pay scale which, as you know, is WAY above ours.

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Another delusional amfa fan! NWA is ELIMINATING those jobs! With Amfa''s help and support they are restructuring their maint operation with a massive outsourcing campaign. Their Mech head count is down almost 60% yet their schedule is only down around 10%. They have no intention of restarting those portions of their farmed out maint operations. Yes there will be a few Mechs here and there that will be recalled, but the bulk of them are history!

 

[1AA]

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On 5/28/2003 5:31:02 PM AAmech wrote:

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On 5/28/2003 1211 AM RUM@AA wrote:

When NWA returns to profitablity, their Mechs will be called back at the current pay scale which, as you know, is WAY above ours.

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Another delusional amfa fan! NWA is ELIMINATING those jobs! With Amfa''s help and support they are restructuring their maint operation with a massive outsourcing campaign. Their Mech head count is down almost 60% yet their schedule is only down around 10%. They have no intention of restarting those portions of their farmed out maint operations. Yes there will be a few Mechs here and there that will be recalled, but the bulk of them are history!

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Don''t go believing all that self proclaimed idea of yours. They will come back to a respectable salary. We on the other hand have been treated like step children with the latest concession package. If you like to get paid crappy wages and benefits that are not even worth mentioning then go ahead and toot your horn. You have no self dignity and pride in your profession and will probably work for minimum wage if it meant saving your job.You need to evaluate your position as an AMT, that is if you really are one. This is not an AMFA vs TWU issue. It is about US the AMT''s in this industry that are trying to hold on to what ever we can. The AMT''s at American do not trust the TWU and the Company. Carty lied to us and the union Lied to us. The International violated it''s own constitutional bylaws. Yea go ahead and keep cheering on the TWU and Bash AMFA. The bottom line is we at AA got screwed and NWA still has their contract in tact. Let''s not even talk about the IAM at UAL and USAir.

 

[RV4]

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On 5/28/2003 5:31:02 PM AAmech wrote:

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Another delusional amfa fan! NWA is ELIMINATING those jobs! With Amfa's help and support they are restructuring their maint operation with a massive outsourcing campaign. Their Mech head count is down almost 60% yet their schedule is only down around 10%. They have no intention of restarting those portions of their farmed out maint operations. Yes there will be a few Mechs here and there that will be recalled, but the bulk of them are history!​

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Delusions? What about your outright LIES?

AMFA has filed grievances and has scheduled arbitration dates over the force majeure lay offs and the difference in schedule versus headcount reductions.

READ THIS:
[url="http://www.amfanatl.org/Pages/06_News&Information/NWA/NWAltr2mbrs5703.pdf"]http://www.amfanatl.org/Pages/06_News&Info...tr2mbrs5703.pdf[/URL]

Here is a screen capture from the document.




What is the status of the TWU 29-D Force Majeure grievance? Did James C. Little bargain that away also?

I know one thing for sure! AMFA members at NWA are not wearing T-Shirts claiming their union is the carriers "REAL STRENGTH"!

It is only the TWU that boldly and accurately makes the claim of the UNION THAT IS THE COMPANIES REAL STRENGTH! And TWU is handing out T-Shirts for members to wear proudly making the claim. THE TRUTH IS NOW ON THE T-SHIRT!

The NEW TWU LOCAL 514 T-SHIRT SLOGAN

TWU - AAmericans Real Strength

"WITHOUT FURTHER RATIFICATION" - To BOOT!

YEP, the TWU is indded AAMERICANS REAL STRENGHT alright. The TWU @ AA is the only Carrier with a 6 plus year licensed mechanic now making below $17.00 per hour!

What a joke of a union:

 

[Buck]

I believe it is called Right To Work. Thanks to the TWU wages have been consistantly lowered since the B-scale of 1983.

 

[RUM@AA]

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On 5/28/2003 5:31:02 PM AAmech wrote:



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Another delusional amfa fan!  NWA is ELIMINATING those jobs!  With Amfa''s help and support they are restructuring their maint operation with a massive outsourcing campaign.  Their Mech head count is down almost 60% yet their schedule is only down around 10%.   They have no intention of restarting those portions of their farmed out maint operations.  Yes there will be a few Mechs here and there that will be recalled, but the bulk of them are history!  

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I like the way you claim to know their intentions. Are you in bed with that company too?
Speaking of resturcturing a maint. operation with a massive outsourcing campaign.....just what the hell do you call the 1995 SRP sell out? 25% of AAs A&P jobs got outsourced to a new, low paying job classification. The only difference between SRPs and Chromalloy or Halmet is that the TWU continued to collect dues from the people doing the work. It did absolutely nothing good for the A&P membership.
I witnessed the 1989 sell-out, the 1995 sell-out and now the 2003 sell-out.
Face the facts, the TWU is a sell-out union.
You guys suck!