AZ to leave Skyteam TATL JV

[WorldTraveler]

and what DL has given ALL DL employees is more mainline capacity growth than AA or UA. WN is turning up the wick on capacity growth now but they weren't ahead of DL for a couple years.

The PWA doesn't give DL or ALPA credit for what they do ABOVE the minimums... all it does is set minimums below which either side is out of line.

The pension issue is a red herring because it doesn't exist.

I am not saying that DL should be allowed to violate the PWA. that is as pro-labor as it can get.

I have said and you can't accept that the PWA is not measuring the right thing if DL can add as much capacity including to Asia and Latin America but it doesn't get counted because they like you are focused on ARN while excluding GRU or PVG.

you can pound your fist on the table and yell "damn them" all you want but I can assure you that it won't change that the company will do what is in the interest of the company and find plenty of ways to ensure the DL pilots win in the process - and win more than their peers at AA and UA do.

and lest we forget what this discussion is about, AZ is in the JV for at least a few more years unless Etihad manages to give DL something to get out.

and given that DL is larger than AZ in the summer but that flips in the winter based on genuine business reasons, DALPA had best figure out how to build a measurement system that reflects the realty that DL becomes far larger in the summer when Americans flock to Europe but will shrink along with every other TATL carrier in the winter when the strong dollar makes European's trips to the US unaffordable. No company including DL is going to operates flights across the Atlantic to satisfy a PWA and lose tens of millions of dollars per month in the process. DL will redeploy those assets elsewhere.

and if you want to talk about what is not in the contract and a couple percent difference in pension funding, let's not forget that DL pilots and the rest of DL's workforce have all received 16% plus of their 2014 salaries in profit sharing and that number is expected to grow this year.

There is no minimum set for profit sharing and yet the profit sharing contribution by the company is now the 2nd largest compensation expense for many DL employees.

There is no DL employees that expected they would receive 16% plus of their annual salary in profit sharing and certainly no one at ALPA.

When you want to argue about a small variance in JV flying that resulted SOLELY because AZ was added to the JV and not because DL reduced its own capacity, it won't take long for the company to remind the pilots and ALPA how much DL has paid out in profit sharing - far in excess of that JV violation and benefitting far more employees.

before you and ALPA go throwing around those violations, you might want to consider the whole package and now DL employees including pilots have seen far better improvements in one category of compnesation and job growth over the last few years than their peers at other airlines.

 

[topDawg]

and what DL has given ALL DL employees is more mainline capacity growth than AA or UA. WN is turning up the wick on capacity growth now but they weren't ahead of DL for a couple years.

The PWA doesn't give DL or ALPA credit for what they do ABOVE the minimums... all it does is set minimums below which either side is out of line.

The pension issue is a red herring because it doesn't exist.

I am not saying that DL should be allowed to violate the PWA. that is as pro-labor as it can get.

I have said and you can't accept that the PWA is not measuring the right thing if DL can add as much capacity including to Asia and Latin America but it doesn't get counted because they like you are focused on ARN while excluding GRU or PVG.

you can pound your fist on the table and yell "damn them" all you want but I can assure you that it won't change that the company will do what is in the interest of the company and find plenty of ways to ensure the DL pilots win in the process - and win more than their peers at AA and UA do.

and lest we forget what this discussion is about, AZ is in the JV for at least a few more years unless Etihad manages to give DL something to get out.

and given that DL is larger than AZ in the summer but that flips in the winter based on genuine business reasons, DALPA had best figure out how to build a measurement system that reflects the realty that DL becomes far larger in the summer when Americans flock to Europe but will shrink along with every other TATL carrier in the winter when the strong dollar makes European's trips to the US unaffordable. No company including DL is going to operates flights across the Atlantic to satisfy a PWA and lose tens of millions of dollars per month in the process. DL will redeploy those assets elsewhere.

all those words and it is still some how ALPAs fault. 
 
Have you ever been a frontline employee? because it is painfully clear that either you just don't give a **** about QOL/seniority or have never been in a place where it means everything.  
 
 

I have said and you can't accept that the PWA is not measuring the right thing if DL can add as much capacity including to Asia and Latin America but it doesn't get counted because they like you are focused on ARN while excluding GRU or PVG.

Your damn right that is how is how i look at it. A damn fool. I mean a fool. would only look at it any other way. 
Every time Delta has a JV it has to be looked at in a vacuum. Again, what AA/UA are doing doesn't mean **** to anyone that has real money in this game. You telling me I should be GLAD to miss holidays with my family, or work a crappy shift, or work in a shop or a bay that I don't want or like because "oh well Delta is growing more than AA" is the dumbest thing I think I might have heard in my life.
Every. Single. Airplane. Every. Single. Route. matters.
Again for Delta to be in compliance would mean probably at least 50 more people for TechOps. That is a lot of people. That means 50 other people's quality of life just got better.  
even more importantly for pilots that would mean that many airplanes worth of crews would get a pay increase along with the possible increase in quality of life. 
 
 
but as normal with you, Whatever Delta says shut up and take it. I personally hope they don't come at you guys, and don't worry if they do I'll do all i can to change it. I damn sure wont sit here and tell you to be happy about it because "UA does this. WN does this. AA does this." 
As normal from the outside in your little pissing contest it is so easy to see and say how stupid things like this are. You would be singing a different tune if you was taking money out of your pocket. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

Fool is right if you assume that I didn't spend half of my DL career as a frontline, scale employee.

and again you are nothing but a Pharisee if all you can do is poke a stick in DL's eye for what they did not do right but can't accept they have provided anything of value that is not written in the contract or if it is that DL exceeded.

your mindset is precisely the reason why unions have been repeatedly taken to the cleaner by airline mgmts. at other airlines; do the bare minimum a contract requires and find every way to screw the employees by using the contract they signed.


it absolutely burns you that ALPA and DL have a positive working relationship that will result in DL both giving the pilots significant pay raises that you also will get even without a union and that ALPA leadership will recognize that they are and will get far more by working with the company than by getting worked up about something which DL might have contractually might not have met even while they are giving far more elsewhere.

Feel free to let me know what happens when the issue is settled and we'll see who was right.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

WT, when you were at Delta, if Delta said they would give you a 5% raise but gave you 3%.....would you be happy about that?

 

if DL couldn't demonstrate that they had given me something else that was equally as value as the 2%, then yes I would be upset.

 
Seriously?  You would have no issues whatsoever if DL, instead of giving you a 5% raise gave you a 3% raise and the remainder in coffee & donuts or a note that your 2% was instead donated on your behalf to charity (i.e. "the human fund") you would have not problem with that?  Be honest please!
 

 

[WorldTraveler]

I never said that.

but free to twist real the concept of real compensation and job growth around to fit a narrative that is supposed to show the DL pilots were harmed.

and it also doesn't change that AA and UA have mastered the art of signing contracts with their unions only to deliver the bare minimum while DL employees with or without unions have fared far better than their peers at other airlines.

the reason why dawg's mindset is not accepted at DL and why he has to pound the keyboard here in frustration is because his peers are smart enough to know they don't want that kind of mindset at DL.

DALPA realizes it too. and DL pilots have fared far better than their peers elsewhere because of it.

if dawg wants to prove me wrong, he can post the final outcome of the TATL JV grievance.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

I'm not twisting anything, what you have written is there for all to see.
 
While I don't know the details of the DL-DALPA contract, to a large degree I would have to agree with dawg that if DL is not in compliance with the terms of the AF/KL JV then it is absolutely irrelevant how much capacity they've added elsewhere in the system or how much they've grown with respect to UA, AA, WN, etc.  Don't get me wrong, as an employee it is generally good to see the company you work for thriving, but at the same time if the company is not living up to the terms of the contracts they have made, it would leave me a bit uncomfortable too.

 

[WorldTraveler]

no one is arguing whether DL is or is not in compliance with a single clause in the contract.

the issue is whether you, dawg, or DALPA is able to see the far larger gains that DL has provided its pilots some of which are spelled out in the contract and some of which are not.

dawg wants to see DALPA nail DL to the wall because of a failure to meet a single line in a contract while failing to see all that DL has done for DL pilots including over 16% in profit sharing which no one including DALPA expected, the most amount of growth on DL's mainline system including to Latin America which isn't covered by that single line in the TATL JV, the fastest hiring rate for pilots among US carriers, and the most aggressive track record for bringing DL flying back to mainline from regional carriers.

DALPA leadership IS smart enough to recognize what they have gained above and beyond the contract is far larger than what they have lost.

DL people including DL pilots have repeatedly shown that they do not want that kind of Pharisee mindset which has cost thousands of jobs and money for employees at AA and UA.

 

[topDawg]

dawg wants to see DALPA nail DL to the wall because of a failure to meet a single line in a contract while failing to see all that DL has done for DL pilots including over 16% in profit sharing which no one including DALPA expected, the most amount of growth on DL's mainline system including to Latin America which isn't covered by that single line in the TATL JV, the fastest hiring rate for pilots among US carriers, and the most aggressive track record for bringing DL flying back to mainline from regional carriers.

Like i said, easy to say sitting behind that computer. My guess is if it effected you it would be a different stroy. Till then, its shut up and do what Delta tells you like a good b&$ch. Again, your exmanagement team would be proud.

DALPA leadership IS smart enough to recognize what they have gained above and beyond the contract is far larger than what they have lost.

DL people including DL pilots have repeatedly shown that they do not want that kind of Pharisee mindset which has cost thousands of jobs and money for employees at AA and UA.

Oh? then why is DALPA grieving it? If i am the only a-hole that speaks out about these kinds of things then why didn't the union let it go? They didn't have to act.

 

[WorldTraveler]

you have worked for DL almost as long as I did. they were YOUR mgmt. team too.

I didn't gain any special dispensation during that time.

There are indeed pilots who speak out but that doesn't mean they will prevail in a settlement or that the company can't succeed in showing DALPA what it has done that is far more valuable to ALL DL pilots and DL employees above and beyond that single line in a contract or that DL can't give them far more.

BTW, you have surely heard the rumor that DL is interested in more large Ejets, this time to be flown by mainline - with the catch that nearly all of the remaining 50 seaters can be flown by 70 and 76 seaters. Given the strong dollar, Embraer and Bombardier might be very willing to give DL or other US companies very big discounts on Brazilian or Canadian built aircraft

DL seems to be happy with having a 100 seater in the mainline fleet again. The only real issue is that the 717 doesn't have the legs to be able to fly some of the routes from NYC, SEA, and LAX that DL would undoubtedly like to fly.

the company is very good at linking more future progress with a little of this, a little of that.

 

[topDawg]

you have worked for DL almost as long as I did. they were YOUR mgmt. team too.

I didn't work with them like you did killer.

 

There are indeed pilots who speak out but that doesn't mean they will prevail in a settlement or that the company can't succeed in showing DALPA what it has done that is far more valuable to ALL DL pilots and DL employees above and beyond that single line in a contract or that DL can't give them far more.

Some pilots? so only a few of the pilots care and that is why ALPA is grieving it? You have no idea how a union works do you?
 

BTW, you have surely heard the rumor that DL is interested in more large Ejets, this time to be flown by mainline - with the catch that nearly all of the remaining 50 seaters can be flown by 70 and 76 seaters. Given the strong dollar, Embraer and Bombardier might be very willing to give DL or other US companies very big discounts on Brazilian or Canadian built aircraft

DL seems to be happy with having a 100 seater in the mainline fleet again. The only real issue is that the 717 doesn't have the legs to be able to fly some of the routes from NYC, SEA, and LAX that DL would undoubtedly like to fly.

the company is very good at linking more future progress with a little of this, a little of that.

its contract time, the company is always putting carrots out during contract time.

but let me see, what would i rather have if i was a pilot....Delta have to grow the widebody fleet and allowing the list to move up
or Delta to add more bottom of the scale aircraft that will go to most new hires and mean more stagnation for the top of the list.

In other words....do pilots hate money?

 

[WorldTraveler]

THAT mgmt. team's checks were cashed on the same account as yours and mine. They are no more mine than they are yours.

Period.

So, pilots might be willing to take a carrot over the stick which might be sick time and scheduling reforms or dropping grievances? they've done it in the past

 

[topDawg]

THAT mgmt. team's checks were cashed on the same account as yours and mine. They are no more mine than they are yours.

Period.

So, pilots might be willing to take a carrot over the stick which might be sick time and scheduling reforms or dropping grievances? they've done it in the past

Again, you worked with them. I didn't. (matter of fact i generally tried to work against them as much as possible) 
 
I couldn't tell you what will happen. I would personally be surprised if DALPA didn't get something in return. As much as you make this a small issue, it has resulted in a lot of stagnation for the pilot group. With more and more JVs on the way i think the pilot group sees this like the start of DCI. Difference is they would be outsourcing a lot higher paying jobs this time around. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

I never worked with THEM


Your statement about stagnation has no basis in fact
Tell us how many new captains have been created over the past year
New DL pilots?

 

[topDawg]

I never worked with THEM Your statement about stagnation has no basis in fact Tell us how many new captains have been created over the past year New DL pilots?

So were you ACS, a pilot, FA or MX? if not, you worked with them champ. 
 
 
seniority how does that work again?
 
and what do you think would pay more. 330 or 717?  
 
Keep sitting behind the desk. Frontline would simply eat you alive.... 

 

[700UW]

Its quite clear the poster child for Anti-Worker and Anti-Union has no clue on how a union operates and what they have to do legally.
 
If DL is is violation and ALPA doesnt act, ALPA can be sued by its members for DFR.
 
Guess WF missed that day in law school, oh wait, he never went.