August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Pi brat]

I'm going to mostly agree with you and make a few comments/observations that hopefully does not distract from our state of agreement.

1. I think there may have been many ways to order the list. If such a scheme as you suggest would have been awarded and if it had a majority of support on both sides (75% or would be nice to see but probably way too high of expectations) then a JCBA would have been attained long ago. As I think you know, if that had happened it would have my full support just as the NIC does or DOH would if that's what the arbitrator decided.

2. Most of what we have been discussing here is a matter of opinion interspersed with facts. The opinions may never be reconciled as there has been precious little persuasion by anyone on the topic. Heck there are some who refuse to accept unquestionable facts because they are too emotionally invested in their opinions.

3. When it comes to an opinion, the only ways that really matter in all of this is that of Nicolau and those who sit as a justice in federal court. Nicolas's opinion was the final word on the award and that will not change regardless of what happens in court from this point. If Silver or the Ninth brings a final resolution, theirs will be final at that point even if, in our opinions, they got it wrong.

4. Stand by because this May shock you, but I'm going to give the NIC's chance of surviving into the the MOU process and the APA integration a 50:50 chance given the nullity language in the MOU. If there's and edge, I would actually give it to USAPA in winning that battle. That being said, if that happens, that means USAPA likely brings two separate lists into the SLI with the APA. The APA says they expect, not DOH, but something much more NIC-like than LOS/DOH. If that happens, the I suspect (opinion here) USAPA (if they are still in a position of representing LCC pilots at the time) will force a M/B arbitration instead of accepting APA's slotting proposals. If that happens, I think the west will come out of that far better than the would have with a stand-alone USAPA DOH list. I could easily be wrong, but that's my thinking at this point. No matter what happens in court or with a M/B arbitration, I would support the end result an would encourage all others to do the same.

Pretty much agree, just think it could go to SCOTUS.

Even though we have disagreed I do appreciate that you try to look at all aspects. You are one of the few westies that has said that this current DJ in not a given. I have a friend that puts west success at 99%. There isn't much I count on at 99%.

 

[Pi brat]

When is USAPA going to figure that out?

After the results of the AA/US SLI would be my guess. When will it dawn on AOL?

 

[Pi brat]

But will USAPA and it's DOH constitution still exist when the M\B arbitration process starts? Single carrier status is almost certain to occur first.

I think the SLI process starts first.

 

[Pi brat]

I predict the first thing the M/B arbirtation panel would do is combine the East and West list to reflect the Nicolau Award.

Why make more work for themselves (combining 3 lists instead of two) when another highly respected arbiter has already done it for them.

If a federal judge won't force the Nicolau award why would an arbitration panel do it? Well, then again the judge has to answer to someone and the arbitrators don't!

 

[Res Judicata]

Pretty much agree, just think it could go to SCOTUS.

Even though we have disagreed I do appreciate that you try to look at all aspects. You are one of the few westies that has said that this current DJ in not a given. I have a friend that puts west success at 99%. There isn't much I count on at 99%.

So We're friends now?

 

[Claxon]

If a federal judge won't force the Nicolau award why would an arbitration panel do it? Well, then again the judge has to answer to someone and the arbitrators don't!

Very good point. There is no nic because it was an internal union dispute. APA, American Pilots, will not got to arbitration. The McCaskill-Bond only requires agreement between the two pilot groups. USAPA and APA agree, which they will, it is over final and binding.

The nic is dead, the nic is dead, you west ding dongs, the nic is dead.

 

[end_of_alpa]

The Arbitrators in the Continental/United merger would be out of business if they didn't mention the mistakes of ALPA.

ARBITRATION BOARD

Dana Edward Eischen Roger P. Kaplan Dennis R. Nolan


"IV. ANALYSIS A. THE APRIL 2009 REVISED ALPA MERGER POLICY

The “legal” framework in which the Board must carry out its responsibility is, of course, the April 2009 ALPA Merger Policy which, like its predecessors, requires the Board to construct a “fair and equitable” ISL. The evolution of ALPA Merger Policy including, most importantly, the modifications following George Nicolau's Award in the America West-US Airways case, is central to the resolution of this case.

That Award, by an experienced impartial arbitrator, was plainly based on the facts in that case record and the terms of the Merger Policy then in effect (but now changed). However, the pushback and uproar created an environment that was ultimately highly detrimental to ALPA and, unhappily, for the America West and US Airways pilots. See generally Jeff Bailey, Pilots' Battles Over Seniority Play Havoc With Airline Mergers, N.Y. TIMES, Feb. 27, 2008. Even as they discuss merging with American Airlines, pilots from US Airways' “East” and “West” groups are still suffering the toxic effects of the seniority integration dispute resulting from the 2005 merger of US Airways and America West. See also, Addington v. U.S. Airline Pilots Ass'n, 606 F.3d 1174 (9th Cir. 2010) (ordering dismissal of DFR suit on ripeness grounds); U.S. Airline Pilots Assn. v. AWAPPA, LLC, 615 F.3d 312 (4th Cir. 2010) (affirming dismissal of RICO litigation).

 

[Pi brat]

So We're friends now?

We? I've always had a level of respect for CG, even when I've disagreed with him. You? I think you can figure that out on your own.

 

[end_of_alpa]

But will USAPA and it's DOH constitution still exist when the M\B arbitration process starts? Single carrier status is almost certain to occur first.

That is incorrect and in any case even if what you say we're to happen USAPA is still a party at the arbitration for the purposes of SLI. It is written in MOU II. Read it.

 

[Claxon]

Very good point. There is no nic because it was an internal union dispute. APA, American Pilots, will not got to arbitration. The McCaskill-Bond only requires agreement between the two pilot groups. USAPA and APA agree, which they will, it is over final and binding.

The nic is dead, the nic is dead, you west ding dongs, the nic is dead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIfKKw-kvPo&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PLB732AA4BB89DCF5C

 

[CallawayGolf]

We? I've always had a level of respect for CG, even when I've disagreed with him. You? I think you can figure that out on your own.

And I appreciate that. Same goes for you and your desire to find a workable solution even if implementing that solution uncontested seems nearly impossible from my viewpoint.

 

[CallawayGolf]

That is incorrect and in any case even if what you say we're to happen USAPA is still a party at the arbitration for the purposes of SLI. It is written in MOU II. Read it.

Perhaps they will, but how controlling will a USAPA constitution be when they are not the recognized CBA. Will USAPA still have a federally mandated DFR if they don't actually represent anyone under the NMB? Strange times.

P.S. If USAPA fails to represent all the LCC pilots during the SLI process, is that a liability that is solely USAPA's to bear or does APA have to oversee USAPA so that a DFR liability isn't created for the AOA because of USAPA's actions during the process?Strange times indeed.

 

[Phoenix]

That is incorrect and in any case even if what you say we're to happen USAPA is still a party at the arbitration for the purposes of SLI. It is written in MOU II. Read it.

Nah. Why read it. Implicit assumption is much more satisfying!

 

[end_of_alpa]

But will USAPA and it's DOH constitution still exist when the M\B arbitration process starts? Single carrier status is almost certain to occur first.

Here is what the MOU II says. Given the time frame for the Nmb petition for single carrier status that process will take quite a while. Oh and while I'm on it if the former TWA pilots, East pilots and other screwed pilots from APA want to petition for another entrant like USAPA or teamsters or whatever we could really be in for a while ride. Well, here it is:

A seniority integration process consistent with McCaskill-Bond shall begin as soon as possible after the Effective Date. (ED = POR)


If, on the date ninety (90) days following the Effective Date, direct negotiations have failed to result in a merged seniority list acceptable to the pilots at both airlines, a panel of three neutral arbitrators will be designated within fifteen (15) days to resolve the dispute, pursuant to the authority and requirements of McCaskill-Bond.

POR + 90 = arbitrators chosen.
POR + 105 = arbitrators.


That arbitration proceeding will commence no later than 60 days after the designation of the arbitrators, or as soon thereafter as practicable given the availability of the designated arbitrators, provided that it is understood that, in no event, shall the seniority integration arbitration proceeding commence prior to final approval of the JCBA pursuant to the deadlines and procedures in Paragraph 27 below.

POR + 165 but no less than JCBA first.

The panel of arbitrators will render its award within six (6) months of the commencement of the arbitration, and in any event not later than 24 months after the Effective Date.

POR + 2 years = SLI.

You guys somehow want to believe that USAPA somehow looses the right to represent the US Airways pilots even if APA becomes the representative. That is 100% untrue.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Perhaps they will, but how controlling will a USAPA constitution be when they are not the recognized CBA. Will USAPA still have a federally mandated DFR if they don't actually represent anyone under the NMB? Strange times.

P.S. If USAPA fails to represent all the LCC pilots during the SLI process, is that a liability that is solely USAPA's to bear or does APA have to oversee USAPA so that a DFR liability isn't created for the AOA because of USAPA's actions during the process?Strange times indeed.

There is speculation that even if APA agrees to DOH they will still want to go to arbitration to avoid any DFR issues. Isn't it funny how unions can't really run themselves no matter who they are? ALPA, USAPA, APA, Teamsters, AFL/CIO...whatever. In Europe there is a glut of pilots. That should balance out our "shortage" here . You know, the shortage the airlines are doom and glooming about. Bidding isn't going to be to the highest seniority anymore....it's going to be the lowest bidder in price.