August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[traderjake]

I suspect (opinion here) USAPA (if they are still in a position of representing LCC pilots at the time) will force a M/B arbitration instead of accepting APA's slotting proposals. If that happens, I think the west will come out of that far better than the would have with a stand-alone USAPA DOH list.

I predict the first thing the M/B arbirtation panel would do is combine the East and West list to reflect the Nicolau Award.

Why make more work for themselves (combining 3 lists instead of two) when another highly respected arbiter has already done it for them.

 

[CallawayGolf]

I predict the first thing the M/B arbirtation panel would do is combine the East and West list to reflect the Nicolau Award.

That certainly wouldn't surprise me.

 

[end_of_alpa]

I predict the first thing the M/B arbirtation panel would do is combine the East and West list to reflect the Nicolau Award.

Why make more work for themselves (combining 3 lists instead of two) when another highly respected arbiter has already done it for them.

Thats not the way it works.

 

[mrbreeze]

You are overreacting to the statements I made since I said it was likely not certain. But in doing so, you actually are making my point. The future is indeed uncertain and just because an east wide-body pilot was active on 9/26/2005 was by no means a guarantee that he would be active and a wide-body pilot on 10/1/2005 with or without the merger. The same should be said for every east and every west pilot.

Spinner bait.....that's you, just like spinner bait on a fishing trip! You make a lot of noise and disrupt the waters, but no meat. breeze

 

[traderjake]

Thats not the way it works.

Are you saying the arbiters can't do that?

We'll see.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Are you saying the arbiters can't do that?

We'll see.

The "arbitrators" under MB are to integrate the respective LIST presented by APA and USAPA and integrate them. There are only two lists. They have no ability to rearrange lists the way you and Callaway think. Only USAPA and APA are legally the only two parties presenting lists. This is an argument the company is trying to make and they will not be successful. There isn't any legal precedence to do otherwise. TWA pilots, AWA pilots, Reno, empire, piedmont, etc. are not and cannot be legal parties with separate representational status under the NMB. That IS the law. Show me the LAW Dan.

 

[end_of_alpa]

I'm going to mostly agree with you and make a few comments/observations that hopefully does not distract from our state of agreement.

1. I think there may have been many ways to order the list. If such a scheme as you suggest would have been awarded and if it had a majority of support on both sides (75% or would be nice to see but probably way too high of expectations) then a JCBA would have been attained long ago. As I think you know, if that had happened it would have my full support just as the NIC does or DOH would if that's what the arbitrator decided.

2. Most of what we have been discussing here is a matter of opinion interspersed with facts. The opinions may never be reconciled as there has been precious little persuasion by anyone on the topic. Heck there are some who refuse to accept unquestionable facts because they are too emotionally invested in their opinions.

3. When it comes to an opinion, the only ways that really matter in all of this is that of Nicolau and those who sit as a justice in federal court. Nicolas's opinion was the final word on the award and that will not change regardless of what happens in court from this point. If Silver or the Ninth brings a final resolution, theirs will be final at that point even if, in our opinions, they got it wrong.

4. Stand by because this May shock you, but I'm going to give the NIC's chance of surviving into the the MOU process and the APA integration a 50:50 chance given the nullity language in the MOU. If there's and edge, I would actually give it to USAPA in winning that battle. That being said, if that happens, that means USAPA likely brings two separate lists into the SLI with the APA. The APA says they expect, not DOH, but something much more NIC-like than LOS/DOH. If that happens, the I suspect (opinion here) USAPA (if they are still in a position of representing LCC pilots at the time) will force a M/B arbitration instead of accepting APA's slotting proposals. If that happens, I think the west will come out of that far better than the would have with a stand-alone USAPA DOH list. I could easily be wrong, but that's my thinking at this point. No matter what happens in court or with a M/B arbitration, I would support the end result an would encourage all others to do the same.

In short, everything you said is speculation. What we DO know is what happened in the past. You nor I have NO real insight into what the APA will do but we DO know what they the APA DID do to the TWA pilots that gave all of us M/B. Somehow some on this forum think the arbitration panel of three people will somehow wreak revenge on USAPA for what they did to their "esteemed" colleague but if the United/Continental decision and commentary is any indication they are well aware the significance of how George Nicolau and ALPA merger policy came to cause a colossal rift in labor integrations and realize the pitfalls in poor arbitration decisions.

Good luck.

 

[traderjake]

The "arbitrators" under MB are to integrate the respective LIST presented by APA and USAPA and integrate them. There are only two lists.

Then it's the APA list and the Nicolau list.

There is no other single seniority list at USAirways.

Show me where the "non Nicolau single seniorty list" exists in the contract.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Then it's the APA list and the Nicolau list.

There is no other single seniority list at USAirways.

Show me where the "non Nicolau single seniorty list" exists in the contract.

DOH. It's in the Constitution. Why do you think Leonidas is suiing? They say the NIC is NOT in the MOU II and they were duped.

Reading comprehension has never been your strong suit Dan.

 

[Freighterguynow]

There's an old saying about the past - can't remember what it is but it's a good one.

 

[traderjake]

DOH. It's in the Constitution.

DOH is in the Constitution?

Wow!

USAPA or the United States?

Why doesn't USAPA put a 100% pay raise in the Constitition?

 

[luvthe9]

http://cltlistens.po...ential-powers 150 mil to the APA boys. Gary must Go!!!

 

[CallawayGolf]

DOH. It's in the Constitution. Why do you think Leonidas is suiing? They say the NIC is NOT in the MOU II and they were duped.

Reading comprehension has never been your strong suit Dan.

But will USAPA and it's DOH constitution still exist when the M\B arbitration process starts? Single carrier status is almost certain to occur first.

 

[Pi brat]

Posted by a West pilot at The Hanger:

"I just realized that the union that can't even negotiate an i-pad agreement with the company will be be negotiating our seniority with the APA, God help us all."

The hangar is full of idiots. He(she) is just now figuring out that while we are fighting a 7 year old battle the APA is free to think about the next one?

 

[traderjake]

He(she) is just now figuring out that while we are fighting a 7 year old battle the APA is free to think about the next one?

When is USAPA going to figure that out?