Atsb Agreement Final Through June 30

[Bud8EE]

As much as I would never want to see anyone lose their job, yes I do want US to shut down. How can anyone outside of BK compete with a company that doesn't pay their bills. Do you really think its better for all of us ( the industry in general) to work for peanuts? Its not a question of how little you will work for but why. Believe it or not my heart does go out to you guys, best of luck to you whatever happens.

[post="238822"][/post]​

Where was the outcry for the TW emplyees that were stapled or cast aside? If you really didn't want to see anyone lose their job and believed in your profession as a brotherhodd or fraternity, you AA employees would have treated them more fairly even if it involved personal sacrifice. Union rhettoric in the airline biz is usually just lip service. The squalling doesn't really start until one's own ox is being gored.

 

[FWAAA]

As much as I would never want to see anyone lose their job, yes I do want US to shut down. How can anyone outside of BK compete with a company that doesn't pay their bills. Do you really think its better for all of us ( the industry in general) to work for peanuts? Its not a question of how little you will work for but why. Believe it or not my heart does go out to you guys, best of luck to you whatever happens.

[post="238822"][/post]​

I agree. While I don't find any satisfaction in watching thousands lose their jobs, I too want to see US (and UAL) shut down, and the sooner the better.

The legacy carriers all have some business passengers (high yield customers), but none have enough to survive.

The time has long passed for some capacity reduction in the full service airline segment, and US and UAL are the natural candidates for that capacity reduction.

 

[Harry Callahan]

Bob Owens is an AA mechanic based in New York who will be going through this too, which is probably why he wants to see US Airways "crash and burn", for the good of all airline employees. Pitiful.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

[post="238756"][/post]​

This one time, I got to agree with you.

 

[Bud8EE]

I agree. While I don't find any satisfaction in watching thousands lose their jobs, I too want to see US (and UAL) shut down, and the sooner the better.

The legacy carriers all have some business passengers (high yield customers), but none have enough to survive.

The time has long passed for some capacity reduction in the full service airline segment, and US and UAL are the natural candidates for that capacity reduction.

[post="238824"][/post]​

Unless you have national seniority list what you are suggesting is a fallacy. The laid off employees who still want employment in this biz will take their experience to your LCC rivals with sounder business models. Alot of it will be driven by a desire to continue in their profession and a lot of it will be to feed their families. Their fraternal brotherhood acroos the industry won't take care odf them so they don't have to rush off to these jobs. They will provide the LCC's or airlines on the drawing boards expererienced labor at new hire wages. With the their stronger balance sheets and access to capital they will quickly vill the void of US and UAL and provide even larger more dominant LCC's a gbigger role in the competitive landscape with access to many protecteed markets like, DCA, LGA and Trans Atlantic. Any capacity reductions will be short lived and someone would have to be fooling themselves at a Legacy to think they woul out compete Luv or JTBLU or Airtran in the race to fill the void at this point. The Legacy's would just have an even bigger disadvantage in the competivie landscape. Their sucessful compettors will be bigger with access to cheap aircrat and experienced labor coming in as new hires to continue to average their labor cost's down. Be careful what you wish for unles you are an employees of one of the afore mentioned outfits. Make no mistake they will be the ones that benifit the most form UAL or U's departure.

 

[FWAAA]

Bob Owens is an AA mechanic based in New York who will be going through this too, which is probably why he wants to see US Airways "crash and burn", for the good of all airline employees. Pitiful.

[post="238756"][/post]​

You couldn't be more wrong about Mr Owens.

Nothing he has posted hints at a desire to see the failing carriers (US or UAL) shut down.

He has posted a desire that all airline employees at every airline coordinate and industry-wide shutdown (general strike) because that will somehow make everything all better.

Of course, IMO, such an action would cause the immediate death of US and UAL (and perhaps others), but Mr Owens would strongly disagree. Unless you think that he agrees with me and he's just being clever in an attempt to shut down US and UAL. Naw, he'd never be that sneaky and underhanded. He's a good union person, afterall. B)

 

[foreright]

I too want to see US (and UAL) shut down, and the sooner the better.

[post="238824"][/post]​

what an as$hole!

 

[Phoenix]

The pieces continue to fall in place. As I have said before, this airline will survive, will be profitable again, and will be a force to be reckoned with in the industry. Everyone has had grave sacrifices in our company, it appears, if all continues to go well, that the sacrifices, will pay off...

[post="238720"][/post]​

[fliboi is right. Lakefield is the man for the job and US will one day be a force to be reckoned with!] [sic]

Cheers,

Phoenix

 

[FWAAA]

Unless you have national seniority list what you are suggesting is a fallacy. The laid off employees who still want employment in this biz will take their experience to your LCC rivals with sounder business models. Alot of it will be driven by a desire to continue in their profession and a lot of it will be to feed their families. Their fraternal brotherhood acroos the industry won't take care odf them so they don't have to rush off to these jobs. They will provide the LCC's or airlines on the drawing boards expererienced labor at new hire wages. With the their stronger balance sheets and access to capital they will quickly vill the void of US and UAL and provide even larger more dominant LCC's a gbigger role in the competitive landscape with access to many protecteed markets like, DCA, LGA and Trans Atlantic. Any capacity reductions will be short lived and someone would have to be fooling themselves at a Legacy to think they woul out compete Luv or JTBLU or Airtran in the race to fill the void at this point. The Legacy's would just have an even bigger disadvantage in the competivie landscape. Their sucessful compettors will be bigger with access to cheap aircrat and experienced labor coming in as new hires to continue to average their labor cost's down. Be careful what you wish for unles you are an employees of one of the afore mentioned outfits. Make no mistake they will be the ones that benifit the most form UAL or U's departure.

[post="238830"][/post]​

Over the long term, you are indeed correct.

But right now, it's not as though every customer at AA, CO, DL or NW is flying those airlines simply because WN and B6 don't yet have the capacity. Yes, the masses will gravitate toward the LCCs.

The people flying on business will not flock to WN or B6 as quickly. Hilton Hotels still house a lot of bodies each night, and it isn't because Motel 6 and Red Roof Inn have expanded too slowly. Similarly, the Hilton crowd ain't flying LCCs exclusively. Nor will they. Not everyone shops at Wal-Mart, some still shop at Saks, Bloomies and Neiman Marcus. Same will be true of airline pax. The oft-repeated falsehood "Nobody will pay legacy fares anymore" is tiring.

For example, B6 has yet to capture a significant share of the high-yield entertainment industry transcon traffic on its JFK-LGB 320s. And it might be many years before it manages to do so. Same for LAX-LHR and JFK-LHR.

Yes, LCCs will enjoy a larger share of the domestic flipflop/backpack/cheapass business pax market each year. But just as GM and Ford still sell a lot of cars despite the inroads made by Honda, Toyota and the rest, the legacy carriers not currently in Ch 11 have a chance of avoiding Ch 11 for a few more years if the pool of airlines offering full service flights contracts. And shutting down US and UAL looks like the best way to do that.

 

[mweiss]

FWAAA,

The more the legacies get to looking and acting like a LCC, the more their passengers will simply opt for the real thing.

And, "nobody will pay legacy fares anymore," while tiring, is accurate. But fares are not binary. You don't have to choose between offering fares at $199 and $1999. You can charge more if you're offering more, sure. But you're not going to see people paying more than the extra features are worth to them...and few people will consider the legroom, food, and extra attention to be worth an 800% price increase.

 

[MiAAmi]

Where was the outcry for the TW emplyees that were stapled or cast aside? If you really didn't want to see anyone lose their job and believed in your profession as a brotherhodd or fraternity, you AA employees would have treated them more fairly even if it involved personal sacrifice. Union rhettoric in the airline biz is usually just lip service. The squalling doesn't really start until one's own ox is being gored.

[post="238823"][/post]​

All the TW'ers would have lost their job if TW had gone belly up before AA came in. The TWA'ers actually recieved raises when AA took over, they actually got a raise thru BK. You have to remember this was all pre-9/11. Regrettably most TW'ers were furloughed following the cuts necessary for AA to curb BK. The TW f/as are close to recall should there be another one in the near future. Keeping pay levels higher/liveable for all industry employees should be the goal. How competitive is it for a company to be able to hide in BK and not pay their bills? Twice? All I know is that if AA comes for more $$$$ from us thats the end for me. Sad to say the industry has gotten to this point but I would have to move on. I love my job and I would hate to quit but I wont work for peanuts or McDonalds pay levels.

 

[mweiss]

How competitive is it for a company to be able to hide in BK and not pay their bills?

[post="238843"][/post]​

If you think that bankruptcy makes it easier to pay the bills, you've got some learning to do about finance.

 

[Harry Callahan]

Thanks to the crap we have gotton they will be after you & everyone else.

 

[MiAAmi]

If you think that bankruptcy makes it easier to pay the bills, you've got some learning to do about finance.

[post="238847"][/post]​

It makes it easier to undercut the companies that are not in BK that are paying their bills. Do you think it would be better to have all the majors in BK?

 

[a320av8r]

All of the "legacy" carriers will be in bankruptcy.
We'll leave a light on for you AA 😉 .

 

[FWAAA]

It makes it easier to undercut the companies that are not in BK that are paying their bills. Do you think it would be better to have all the majors in BK?

[post="238879"][/post]​

Exactly. Had UA and US been forced to pay the hundreds of millions of 2004 required pension contributions, it would have been harder for those two to continue. Meanwhile, the other legacy carriers made their required pension contributions.

UA has walked away from lots of other bills (terminal leases, for example), making it easier for it to undercut others.