Arpey And Apfa Talking Cooperation

[Wretched Wrench]

The sad part is, the mechs who leave these days are the best. They are leaving because they are the best-equipped to find a good job before the market is even more flooded. The ones who stay include both the poorly-equipped or the optimists who think they might get a retirement.

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

The ones who stay include both the poorly-equipped or the optimists

I am not optimistic nor poorly equipped.
I like to think of it as milking the cow

The fact is When AA goes belly up I guarentee 90 percent of the Line Mechanics do not go back into aviation. That is a fact
The twu has set the standard for minimum wage AMT. I would rather work for minimum wage 9-5 witrh holidays and weekends off

 

[nbmcg01]

I am not optimistic nor poorly equipped.
I like to think of it as milking the cow

The fact is When AA goes belly up I guarentee 90 percent of the Line Mechanics do not go back into aviation. That is a fact
The twu has set the standard for minimum wage AMT. I would rather work for minimum wage 9-5 witrh holidays and weekends off

[post="311107"][/post]​

Isn't this an AA-APFA thread?

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

Isn't this an AA-APFA thread?

[post="311108"][/post]​

No its an AA concession thread. With the pilots up at bat, and after them we are next.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

.
I like to think of it as milking the cow

Continuing the barnyard comparisons, some think of themselves as "riding the horse till it drops". The only problem there is that you will be out on the job market a little late.

It all depends on your view of the future. As does so much.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

Looks like a good fit:

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article....38&in_page_id=2

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

Continuing the barnyard comparisons, some think of themselves as "riding the horse till it drops". The only problem there is that you will be out on the job market a little late.

It all depends on your view of the future. As does so much.

[post="311173"][/post]​

Been there done that actualyy this is my third stop. My next stop wont be the airline industry

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

Looks like a good fit:

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article....38&in_page_id=2

[post="311205"][/post]​

God forbid they do this...

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article....46&in_page_id=2

 

[Skymess]

Typical flight attendant. Write the epitaph for us all before the company has even asked for additional cuts. Typical because you can #### and complain, but provide no effort to make a difference.

Doom only comes to the ones to foolish to be unprepared and to lazy to be involved.

[post="310685"][/post]​

I am ####ing and complaining because I know how managment operates and I know how the APFA operates. I am really being pragmatic. If they have already told us in so many words that we need to cut costs and that fuel is sucking us dry, they are setting us up. Don't stick your head in the sand and just have faith that you won't be asked for something.

In another thread Nancy had stated that we need to be ready by going through our own contract and picking out the stuff that will have less of an impact on the entire work group than slashing salaries and work rules. I agree with that. There are plenty of things that can be changed to save our salaries and work rules. It would behoove APFA and other unions to start looking at those things.

Some flight attendants and other work groups are also adamant in their belief that they will not have to give anything else up and that thte pilots will have to give more or they will only come to the pilots.

That is a joke. It is not the pilots fault that the other stupid unions gave back such a disproportionate amount the first time. If they come back I find it unlikely they will come back to one group and leave the rest alone. This time they may ask the pilots for more but it is more than likely they will ask the others for something.

 

[Skymess]

Just some thoughts about possible "concessions" we might be looking at...

1. On DFW-SAT-DFW turn, f/as would clean the plane at SAT as well as when they get back to DFW (because it is a thru-flight to Fresno. Lotta traffic on that SAT-FAT route, don't you know? ) This would be in line with SWA and some of the other lccs.

Ideas like this are the ones I am thinking about. This would also work as a concession for the cabin guys too though. The less cleaning they do the less work they have.

2. Set number of personal days per year (that could not be saved and carried over from one year to the next) to be used for sick, vacation, family business, whatever. When they're used up, they're used up. This would be the same or similar to what is being proposed for Delta flight attendants.

What's are personal day amount now? Can't recall ever taking one. I didn't know we had an allotment.

3. I would not be surprised to see the company get really serious about attendance issues and "restriction of output" issues, and more f/as than ever getting fired. (On this one, I'm not wholly opposed. Some of them NEED to be fired. And, I'm not just speaking as a junior flight attendant who would move up in seniority. There are some I am embarrassed to have to claim as co-workers.)

For the company to see ristriction of output issues they need to hire ghost riders. That costs more than the restriction does. Most flight attendants that I know speak with the person with the lack of output and tell them to get themselves together because we are tired of doing their job.

4. This centralized FMLA processing will result in fewer termination arbitrations being lost by the company when the issue is attendance and attendance related. No more of this--"The termination is revoked because the company representative did not explain FMLA correctly." Now, while I agree that there are some FSMs out there who don't have a clue on FMLA and probably DID explain it incorrectly, with the contempt that most f/as seem to have for their own FSM, how can they claim to be professionals and then depend upon someone they consider stupid giving them accurate information? It's all out there in print. Maybe the flight attendant should take some personal responsibility to educate himself or herself on the program. They get terminated and then all of a sudden it's "I'm just a poor dumb flight attendant and it made my head hurt to read those pamphlets; so, it's my FSM's fault that I had 13 more chargeable occurrences while I was in pre-termination."

[post="310847"][/post]​

The people I know who have been losing their jobs due to sick time abuse are not the ones with FMLA. From what I have seen it is the ones who DON'T get the FMLA. How do you get gired if you have the FMLA? Travelling around on the sick list? I know that is still a big problem with some people who just can't seem to comprehend that they can't do it.

 

[jimntx]

Isn't this an AA-APFA thread?

[post="311108"][/post]​

Face it. It doesn't matter that the topic title is "Arpey and APFA (the flight attendant union) discuss concessions." The topic could be Biscuit Recipes of Favorite Great Aunts, and the Rampers or Mechanics or whoever keeps high-jacking the threads would start up on the endless TWU vs. AMFA mewling.


nbmcg01, I know that you know about StewPot, but for the flight attendants on here that may not know...

For an AA Flight Attendant ONLY bulletin board, send a Yahoo email to [email protected]. You need to go to Yahoo.com first and establish a username. Then send a Yahoo email to the subscribe address.
The owner verifies that the person requesting membership is an AA flight attendant (active, furloughed, or retired).

 

[Mach85ER]

Some flight attendants and other work groups are also adamant in their belief that they will not have to give anything else up and that thte pilots will have to give more or they will only come to the pilots.

That is a joke. It is not the pilots fault that the other stupid unions gave back such a disproportionate amount the first time. If they come back I find it unlikely they will come back to one group and leave the rest alone. This time they may ask the pilots for more but it is more than likely they will ask the others for something.

[post="311712"][/post]​

I kinda of scratching my head on this statement. As a pilot, I gave up $$$ more than any Mech or FA, including those furloughed.

Please note this is dollar value only. I didn't deal the trauma of losing a job, which is greater than I dealt with.

 

[FWAAA]

I kinda of scratching my head on this statement. As a pilot, I gave up $$$ more than any Mech or FA, including those furloughed.

Please note this is dollar value only. I didn't deal the trauma of losing a job, which is greater than I dealt with.

[post="311723"][/post]​

Of course you are correct, but there a few vocal posters here who subscribe to the mistaken view that the 9% restoration in 2004 (after the 23% or so 2003 pay rate reduction) somehow placed the pilots in a better position than the TWU or the APFA members.

A review of all the circumstances shows that the APA took the larger percentage hit in 2003 because of the long time frame in implementing the other savings from pilots (like furloughs and downgrades, among other things).

Didn't many pilots actually lose upwards of 50% of their comp (when seat loss and aircraft downgrades were factored in)?

 

[jimntx]

Ideas like this are the ones I am thinking about.  This would also work as a concession for the cabin guys too though. The less cleaning they do the less work they have.

Well, there is the argument that all some of them do is b*tch about the cleaning of a/c...that it takes time away from loading and unloading the planes which is their real job. Also, in some stations, "cleaning" now consists of rolling up the blankets in a ball and throwing them in the overhead bins.

Also, think about it. Who would the company rather have clean? F/As making the princely sum of $1.50/hr expense money? Or, a ramper making whatever their per/hr pay is? IIRC, even the SWA f/as with their new highest paid in the industry contract did not get ground time pay for cleaning which they were asking for. And, they weren't even asking for flight pay--just something like $5.00/hr while on the ground doing turnaround work.

What's are personal day amount now? Can't recall ever taking one. I didn't know we had an allotment.

We don't. That's the point. Instead of having an allotment of vacation days (which can be taken as PVDs), sick days, and then you go to your FSM for a PO (personal off) for other reasons, you would be given a set amount of days off per year. Just for the sake of argument, let's say 50/yr.

Those would be yours to use whenever and for whatever reason you choose. If you call in sick for a 3 day trip, it uses up 3 of those days. If you schedule vacation over those 3 days, it uses up 3 days. If you have an appointment with your lawyer during the span of that trip, it uses up 3 days.

However, once those days are gone, anything else is time off without pay and would probably be chargeable. So, if you are having some health problems it would not be smart to use up all your days for vacation or "just because you don't like who you're flying with this month." It would be your responsibility to manage your personal time off. You use it frivolously, you lose.

I'm sure there would be some restrictions on it--for instance the "year" would not be a calendar year. Since the days would not be carried over to the next year, it would not be feasible to have everyone taking their days in December to prevent losing them. Also, when it comes to using them as vacation, seniority would still apply for the same reason. We have to accept that not everyone can have Christmas off.

For the company to see ristriction of output issues they need to hire ghost riders. That costs more than the restriction does. Most flight attendants that I know speak with the person with the lack of output and tell them to get themselves together because we are tired of doing their job.

What makes you think they ever "hired" ghost riders? UORs (unannounced observation rides) were always done by FSMs or staff from a base other than your own. And, since the job title Operational Service Manager (OSM) is being eliminated in all bases except MIA and DFW, there will be some people available to do UORs.

And speaking to the f/a doesn't always work nor is it feasible. If you are the #4 on a S80 and you are junior, and the #1 who is very much senior to you has only 4 people in F/C, but she gives out cans of soda to the 4 passengers in F/C (it's a beverage only flight) then sits down in 3F and reads a magazine for the rest of the flight, you tell me how you approach her--especially when she has already made it clear that she thinks anyone with less than 20 years is totally incompetent and not worth speaking to. (Yes, I was the #4.)

The people I know who have been losing their jobs due to sick time abuse are not the ones with FMLA. From what I have seen it is the ones who DON'T get the FMLA. How do you get gired if you have the FMLA? Travelling around on the sick list? I know that is still a big problem with some people who just can't seem to comprehend that they can't do it.

Well, the point is abuse of sick leave isn't it? And, the new, centralized FMLA processing is to our advantage also. There are a group of people who understand it and are well-versed on the ins and outs of FMLA. You know longer have to be concerned that your FSM doesn't really understand the program and denies you FMLA when you are actually eligible for it. However, I would hazard a guess that the great majority of people who are denied FMLA are not eligible for it or the situation does not qualify them for it. The title of the Federal law is the Family Medical Leave Act. Not the Federal "I don't feel like doing 4 legs today" Act or the Federal "I have issues with the #2" Act.

I know a couple of people who commute to their base--in both cases, there are multiple flights daily between their home city and their base. Both always wait until the very last flight that will get them to base in time for sign-in. If the flight is late or cancels, they call in sick to avoid getting a missed trip. One of those people is in jeopardy of being fired because she is now sick and has no sick leave. And, she refuses to see that she brought this upon herself. It is somehow the company's fault that she has to commute (she does not live in a base city).

It's not just the non-revving while on sick leave that is getting people fired. If you (or a family member) are so sick that you have used up all your sick leave AND you have exhausted the Federally-mandated 12 weeks of unpaid leave under the FMLA, you are too sick to work, period. No company can continue keeping someone on their employee rolls--paid or unpaid--indefinitely.

And, in the case of flight attendants it's even more critical that people show up to work. Reserves are not unlimited, and the FAA is really anal-retentive about minimum crews. If a S80 takes off with even one passenger on it, those rigid guys at the FAA insist that there must be at least 3 f/as and 2 cockpit crew on board.

There are a lot of flight attendants at AA who seem to think that sick leave is just like vacation--i.e., it is theirs to use whenever and for whatever reason they choose. And, if they run out, the company should give them some more. Sick leave is a benefit granted by companies that is NOT required under the law. One of the main reasons for the passage of the FMLA was to give some protection to employees of companies that did NOT grant sick leave. Sick leave is a benefit that you are supposed to use only when you or an immediate family member is sick. No court in the United States has ever accepted the argument that "I earned it. I have a right to take it." If the company has a picture of you out disco dancing (ok, so I dated myself there ) while you are on sick leave for a back injury, you are not going to persuade the court that you are too sick or too in pain to work.

 

[Garfield1966]

Wow, keep talking like that and they will think you work in crew skd with me.

You are talking to deaf ears on this board. Very few here read the part of the hiring brochure that said we operate 365 days a year IN A ROW. I had one bomb in yesterday after dept to call in sick and low and behold, she was sick the last 4 x-mass’s in a row.

I like your idea of a certain amount of allocated days to take when I choose. I see two problems though. First, there would be no way to forecast staffing which at least from the crew skd stand point is essential to keeping the operation going. Second, I do not see running out of days being a problem. I do not have stats to back it up but a large portion of the sick calls I get are unpaid. And a large portion of those are repeat offenders.

I would not survive a month in crew skd with attendance records that I see on a daily basis.