They reduced OCT? Was there a reson they gave for that?
Arpey And Apfa Talking Cooperation
- Thread starter Skymess
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Halloween?! It is traditionally a higher sick callaout day, so they reduce the # of vacations. Simple.
Just try dropping a trip on Halloween!
jimntx
Veteran
S80dude, I did not look at the numbers this year (my grand 2 days of vacation for this cycle--and hey let's quit with the knocking Feb., ok? I have a Monday and Tuesday next Feb); so, I'll take your word for the moment that Oct. awards were reduced. Could it also be that for whatever reason, people senior to you bid Oct. vacation that don't normally bid Oct? I'm not saying it happened, but is it totally outside the realm of possibility?
Also, was Oct an all or nothing vacation month for you? I'm mildly curious about the use of the term "stuck with February." If you are senior enough to have "always held October," I'm assuming that February was your 2nd choice or you entered no back up bids whatsoever. Is October absolutely the only month that will do?
I'm not trying to start something. Like I said, I'm curious. I'm so junior, I don't assume that my first request to go the bathroom will be granted.
Also, was Oct an all or nothing vacation month for you? I'm mildly curious about the use of the term "stuck with February." If you are senior enough to have "always held October," I'm assuming that February was your 2nd choice or you entered no back up bids whatsoever. Is October absolutely the only month that will do?
I'm not trying to start something. Like I said, I'm curious. I'm so junior, I don't assume that my first request to go the bathroom will be granted.
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #94
Your group negotiated your rates, compared to the industry, you did well. You may not like what you got, but my hats off to you, you are what you negotiate, "fair" or "feel" has nothing to do with it.
I completely agree with you. I thought the giving was too much last time.
I do not blame you for what you negotiated. I just think that your cuts weren't steep enough, whether you want to compare yourself to other airlines or not. I am talking for the amount of cuts needed at AA. I am sure we will disagree forever on that one. I am sure it is coming across as more bitter than I actually am. I had to get over my bitterness about my raw deal very quickly back in 2003 or I never would have been able to still do the same job with any kind of enjoyment. It basically is what it is. If I could have a lobotomy and forget what I would be making I would be much more happy than I am but I am not unhappy.
Knowing that the flight attendants can only blame ourselves and our union for our own stupidity is the same reason why I think it is stupid to believe that they would only come knocking on one unions doorstep for concessions. If they come back to us it will be to all of us. That's reality and we should all be prepared for it because it isn't looking good.
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- #95
Mike,
There are always going to be the bitter people around whether we do get paid good money or not. I will give you that. Just as there will always be the people around who dislike the ones they work with and think they are smarter than them as well.
The only thing we can all do while at work is to do what we are supposed to, treat people the way we would like to be treated, and lead by example. We aren't going to change people's attitudes by being abrasive.
The decrease in vacation slots available was addressed in a few APFA hotlines and ,as Nancy has stated in a previous post, APFA filed a grievance about it.
You wanted me to give exampled of what the company can do to cut down on sick calls:
The planner who builds the lines can make sure that the pain is shared and that one line doesn't contain ALL of the December holidays.
If someone works Christmas then why do they have to work Christmas Eve and New Years Eve as well?
I understand that we are an airline and we operate 24/7/365. Let them figure out how to mix the lines so that if you do a Christmas Eve Turn you are off Chrismtas. If you Do a trip over Christmas Eve that it returns early for Christmas Day. If you work Christmas than another line will have to work New Years Eve.
I don't think it is too much to ask for. Right now it seems as though you get really good lines for senior people and the rest is a bunch of mish mosh garbage thrown together with no rhyme and reason other than to make people sick.
The JFK base manager only makes changes to the bid sheet that benefit senior people. I have never received any emails about how he is working to cut down on the 4:57 minute sit times for the poor junior turds who get bid denied to fly them and the poor reserves who have to fly them because those are the only things guaranteed to be in open time.
Another thing is that you can't just say "it's your job" about everything and not look to change something. A friend of mine who has been flying 35 years thinks people serving reserve who want changes to reserve should just shut up because when she served they didn't have cell phones. If there is a way to make something more palatable, within the realm of still getting the job done, I don't think there should be any reason why we shouldn't explore the possibilities. Sometimes you just need to think outside the box a little bit.
jimntx
Veteran
I'm still in the "less than 5 years group" that has benefitted greatly from the change to the non-rev policy that allows me to take a jumpseat and not pay for my commute even if there are empty seats in the cabin. It has saved me well over $1000 in commuting costs to STL from DFW over the past 11 months. I can't tell you how many times I have been told by selfish senior flight attendants at AA that "it's not fair because
I had to pay those charges; so you should pay them also." (This is the same group that also will claim that "in the old days we had to work 17 years and 7.33 months in order to earn one non-rev pass per year." :huh: :huh: :huh:
) The me-me-me attitude of AA flight attendants is the main reason that the company can play the APFA like a harp. (I'm now taking bets on how big a stink this last statement will cause.)
- Thread Starter
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- #97
I'm still in the "less than 5 years group" that has benefitted greatly from the change to the non-rev policy that allows me to take a jumpseat and not pay for my commute even if there are empty seats in the cabin. It has saved me well over $1000 in commuting costs to STL from DFW over the past 11 months. I can't tell you how many times I have been told by selfish senior flight attendants at AA that "it's not fair because
I had to pay those charges; so you should pay them also." (This is the same group that also will claim that "in the old days we had to work 17 years and 7.33 months in order to earn one non-rev pass per year." :huh: :huh: :huh:
The me-me-me attitude of AA flight attendants is the main reason that the company can play the APFA like a harp. (I'm now taking bets on how big a stink this last statement will cause.)
I think the company plays APFA so well because they simply outclass them in the strategy department. It is like manipulation 101. They stroke them and make them think they are so smart and they respect them and then they kick them to the curb when they are finished using them up. APFA is like a stupid prostitute who charges 2 dollars when they can get 100.
Let me see, I posted that I took a 49%, $80,000 a year paycut, and you return that you "think" that wasn't steep enough? Even though we trail the inustry in compensation, we should take more cuts while you still make industry (or near it) leading wages for a job that literally requires as little training as it does?
ummm, ok.
bye
I don't think there is an argument that some of you took a substantial paycut. But not all took 49%
You agreed to low monthly hours instead of furloughing addtional pilots. It seems kind of assinine to me. The purpose of a union is to preserve the quality of your job not the quantity of those employed. You lost a seat, well at least you held it for a little while, think of those at the bottom that will probably never see it. You are all still lobbying to keep the retirement at 60, I really think you might have an additional 5 years of usefuleness. And as for filling job vacancies, there are thousands of pilots who would be willing to work for half of what you make. Don't spit up in the air, it may hit you in the face.
- Thread Starter
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- #100
It shouldn't be long before you guys are working just as hard for the same peanuts we are. Supply and demand and all that.
I suppose if the pay came down that far you could always get a job doing........um........doing.............I can't really think of anything else your training will qualify you for.
Actually, the PRIMARY responsibility of a Union is to preserve jobs. Secondary is the betterment of of the craft and class. The f/a union was given an alternate proposal that not only saved most of the last round of furloughs BUT didn't screw the working f/a and potential furloughee. Unfortunately, the "leader" was so intent in his "killer "B" mentality, that he wanted to punish the former TWA f/as because in his eyes we epitomized "senior women", and they are the ones who brought "B" scale into his life as a new hire. He was not smart enough to see the distruction of decades of collective bargaining gain lost and probably never to be seen again.
It really is counter productive to make such snide comments regarding another work group. Keep the discussion to the givebacks and not craft and class attacks. This is the very reason AA will win every time. You all let mangt. pit you against each other. Reality time, be proactive and start looking at your OWN contracts and looking for ways to tighten up the language, think about what is important, and figure of potentail cost savings. Then submit your ideas to your MEC, Board, whatever and whomever it takes to listen.
jimntx
Veteran
Thanks for catching that. Some APFA members seem to forget that if people like me are not around, they have to serve reserve--one of those quality of life issues they all like to whine about. Hell, even with furloughees being recalled, I hear that reserve goes up to something like 17 years at DFW these days.
Labor Unions were formed to protect quality of worklife and salaries. Please read the link. Unfortunately the labor unions are inneffective nowadays as their main concern is to keep as many people as possible working for lower wages and higher union dues.
http://www.socialstudieshelp.com/Eco_Unionization.htm
jimntx
Veteran
That is A view of labor history--apparently written for 8th graders, but we'll leave that for now--it is not necessarily THE ONLY view of labor history. Sociologists are not, as a group, known for their objectivity--mainly because most social theory can not be objectively tested and proved. The sociologist observes individual and/or group behavior and develops ideas about the underlying motivations and causes. However, even if the sociologist interviews the subjects of the study, he or she must depend upon their honesty. It's kind of like the Alabama example--i.e., "Big Jim" Folsom was governor 3 times in the late 40's and early 50's (the governor could only serve 1 four-year term at the time, but could be re-elected after a term out of office). In one election, he was elected in the first round even though there were 15 candidates for governor. Yet, you could never find anyone who voted for him (translated into the English: you could never find anyone who would ADMIT to voting for him.
)Also, while the early history of labor unions did have a good deal to do with eliminating employer work condition abuses, as time passed most of the reforms desired by unions became law--either Federal or state--and the unions began to focus on job creation and job protection. It's been awhile now since the average labor union has had to deal with child labor or locked exit door or forced, unpaid overtime issues.
And, you certainly could not say that the APFA is concerned with quality of life issues. They think that once pay rates are decided, they can quit negotiating and go home.
