Arpey And Apfa Talking Cooperation

[Mach85ER]

You must look at the whole picture. Its not simply pay, pension or anything else. Its a whole CBA. We may make more than some other carriers, but the company has more flexibility with us than the pilots, or even other airline FA's.

Compare the utilization of a flight attendant scheduled month and that of a pilot. They get more for there dollar.

[post="310614"][/post]​

FA Mikey,

Your first part is right on the money. I don't pretend to know what the total package of your agreement is, all I know is that when a good chunk of your group is paid more than nearly all regional FO's and your opposition is going to come after you just like NWA.

The second part of your post is an apples and oranges comparison. In most industries in the last decade, they have been coming after non-skilled labor with a vengance. Skilled labor is on the hit list too, but be warned where they will hit the worst.

good luck

 

[Bob Owens]

That information was conspicuously absent from the curriculum vitae that was widely distributed (indeed, trumpeted) immediately after his coronation. I suspect the rank and file are still unaware of it.

.

[post="310366"][/post]​

Its not something that Little brags about. It came out during his deposition. The TWU actually tried to get a restraining order preventing us from disclosing such info. The Judge called them "childish" and threw it out.

 

[Bob Owens]

They won't even ask you. They will simply make their wishes known to the TWU.

.

[post="310511"][/post]​

And as the International sells the company's sob story they will still be collecting THEIR checks from the company!

 

[bradybyrnes]

FA Mikey,

Your first part is right on the money. I don't pretend to know what the total package of your agreement is, all I know is that when a good chunk of your group is paid more than nearly all regional FO's and your opposition is going to come after you just like NWA.

The second part of your post is an apples and oranges comparison. In most industries in the last decade, they have been coming after non-skilled labor with a vengance. Skilled labor is on the hit list too, but be warned where they will hit the worst.

good luck

[post="310639"][/post]​

I would agree with you Mach85er, on most of your post. However, the days of pilots calling themselves skilled labor are soon to end. Just look at NWA, as you seem to compare the flight attendant situation too. If an airline can replace a skilled aircraft mechanic, an airline can find a "skilled pilot" to fly the bus. We are all kidding ourselves in thinking that management cannot replace any and all workers. The days of skilled labor vs. unskilled labor are over. The number of people willing to cross a picket line has never been higher, nor in my opinion, more accepted by the general public than it is today. We have entered a very anti-union period of our country. The days of any collective strength is weakening on a daily basis.

 

[Skymess]

The APFA leadership is getting ready for what ever the future may bring us. We are not going to be like last time scrabbling with a BK threat over our heads.

This union will have the right people and the right numbers in hand ready to go. If there is a situation where they do need to negotiate more concessions. We will be ready and in the end, the membership will have the final and only say.

Never mistake preparedness for weakness.

[post="310550"][/post]​

I feel as though I should play the soothing waterfall and rain cd while I read this. Though the cd won't prevent me from wanting to smash the player in because it is as false a sense of calm as the APFA would like you to believe.

Don't mistake the people in the APFA having your best interests at heart. The same people in 2003 behind the scenes are the starring players today. They took away our vote last time and God only knows what they will attempt this time.
We're doomed. :rant:

 

[Skymess]

I would agree with you Mach85er, on most of your post. However, the days of pilots calling themselves skilled labor are soon to end. The days of skilled labor vs. unskilled labor are over. The number of people willing to cross a picket line has never been higher, nor in my opinion, more accepted by the general public than it is today. We have entered a very anti-union period of our country. The days of any collective strength is weakening on a daily basis.

[post="310644"][/post]​

The only people allowed to call themselves skilled labor are apparently management. Don't think those pilot pensions won't be wiped out. If they don't get those you will be paying for them with blood, sweat, tears, and half of your paycheck.

You can pretty much guarantee it will come down to choices. Do you want money now to save for your own retirement or do you want a retirement bonus that may or may not be negotiated away further down the road before you may retire?

I would bet there is a great chance that if APFA doesn't do as Nancy has suggested, by tweaking the contract for give backs that don't involve financial hardship, and if they aren't firm with the valuations of what each item is worth, than most of the FA's are willing to sail this baby right into bankruptcy. If that's the case it is all down the drain.

This revived talk of merger is very interesting. I wonder what kind of shady business will occur with that?

 

[Bob Owens]

I would agree with you Mach85er, on most of your post. However, the days of pilots calling themselves skilled labor are soon to end. Just look at NWA, as you seem to compare the flight attendant situation too. If an airline can replace a skilled aircraft mechanic, an airline can find a "skilled pilot" to fly the bus. We are all kidding ourselves in thinking that management cannot replace any and all workers. The days of skilled labor vs. unskilled labor are over. The number of people willing to cross a picket line has never been higher, nor in my opinion, more accepted by the general public than it is today. We have entered a very anti-union period of our country. The days of any collective strength is weakening on a daily basis.

[post="310644"][/post]​

We can thank the useless leaders we cant remove for that.

As labor leaders call on workers to put aside any differeces they may have such as Christian vs Jew, vs Moslem, vs Athiest , Black, White, Hispanic, hetero-homo, male, female etc its seems that these same leaders have ZERO tolerance for minor differences in union ideology and are willing to see the whole movement harmed, even to the point of joining forces with those who wish to destroy all unions, in order to see those unions whom they are intolerant of fail.

In the end all workers lose but these people who run the unions dont really care because in the end their dues funded salaries, pensions and other perks are the only things that seem to remain secure. Note that as our salaries, pensions and benifits dissapear that our so called "leaders" have lost NOTHING.

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

the days of pilots calling themselves skilled labor are soon to end.

As long as you dont touch the million dollar buy out any thing is possible

Heading, vertical speed, and altitude can be done by any monkey at half the price
actually AA should look into outsourcing the pilots with all the lay offs in the industry pilots have to be a dime a dozen. China is doing A checks Mexico doing B checks there has got to be some pilots in those countries looking for work.
The public doesnt care about the maintenance why should they care about the pilot. So long as the ticket is cheap they take thier chances.

We can have such a low cost airline we could retire off the profit sharing checks

 

[Bob Owens]

We can have such a low cost airline we could retire off the profit sharing checks

[post="310657"][/post]​

I woulnt count on it. PS does not kick in until they clear $500,000,000 in profits and it has a cap too.

 

[FA Mikey]

I feel as though I should play the soothing waterfall and rain cd while I read this. Though the cd won't prevent me from wanting to smash the player in because it is as false a sense of calm as the APFA would like you to believe.

Don't mistake the people in the APFA having your best interests at heart. The same people in 2003 behind the scenes are the starring players today. They took away our vote last time and God only knows what they will attempt this time.
We're doomed. :rant:

[post="310651"][/post]​

Typical flight attendant. Write the epitaph for us all before the company has even asked for additional cuts. Typical because you can #### and complain, but provide no effort to make a difference.

Doom only comes to the ones to foolish to be unprepared and to lazy to be involved.

 

[Mach85ER]

China is doing A checks Mexico doing B checks there has got to be some pilots in those countries looking for work.

[post="310657"][/post]​

China is short of pilots. More than a few western types flying there. Mexico isn't that big.

You may be right over the long term with pilots. I tell idiots bragging about their $85 ticket to enjoy it, In the future I will be gone and most of the qualified pilots will too, and personally won't ride in an airplane unless it's a emergency.

I guess we'll get to see if future ticket prices still support it as a skilled postion. It's still a very expensive long road to get enough training and experience to fly. The B6's of the world suck pilots into accepting low pay in the hopes that one day they will have what was the Majors good pay or be the next SWA or FDX. That model may change if you can't convince pilots to fly 10 years in the military or pay big $$$ crappy civilian jobs just to become an airline pilot.

 

[jimntx]

Just some thoughts about possible "concessions" we might be looking at...

1. On DFW-SAT-DFW turn, f/as would clean the plane at SAT as well as when they get back to DFW (because it is a thru-flight to Fresno. Lotta traffic on that SAT-FAT route, don't you know? ) This would be in line with SWA and some of the other lccs.
2. Set number of personal days per year (that could not be saved and carried over from one year to the next) to be used for sick, vacation, family business, whatever. When they're used up, they're used up. This would be the same or similar to what is being proposed for Delta flight attendants.
3. I would not be surprised to see the company get really serious about attendance issues and "restriction of output" issues, and more f/as than ever getting fired. (On this one, I'm not wholly opposed. Some of them NEED to be fired. And, I'm not just speaking as a junior flight attendant who would move up in seniority. There are some I am embarrassed to have to claim as co-workers.)
4. This centralized FMLA processing will result in fewer termination arbitrations being lost by the company when the issue is attendance and attendance related. No more of this--"The termination is revoked because the company representative did not explain FMLA correctly." Now, while I agree that there are some FSMs out there who don't have a clue on FMLA and probably DID explain it incorrectly, with the contempt that most f/as seem to have for their own FSM, how can they claim to be professionals and then depend upon someone they consider stupid giving them accurate information? It's all out there in print. Maybe the flight attendant should take some personal responsibility to educate himself or herself on the program. They get terminated and then all of a sudden it's "I'm just a poor dumb flight attendant and it made my head hurt to read those pamphlets; so, it's my FSM's fault that I had 13 more chargeable occurrences while I was in pre-termination."

 

[Bob Owens]

China is short of pilots. More than a few western types flying there. Mexico isn't that big.

You may be right over the long term with pilots. I tell idiots bragging about their $85 ticket to enjoy it, In the future I will be gone and most of the qualified pilots will too, and personally won't ride in an airplane unless it's a emergency.

I guess we'll get to see if future ticket prices still support it as a skilled postion. It's still a very expensive long road to get enough training and experience to fly. The B6's of the world suck pilots into accepting low pay in the hopes that one day they will have what was the Majors good pay or be the next SWA or FDX. That model may change if you can't convince pilots to fly 10 years in the military or pay big $$$ crappy civilian jobs just to become an airline pilot.

[post="310695"][/post]​

Well the way things are going the mechs will be gone first. So you will have under-qualified pilots flying poorly repaired aircraft but I guess for $85 they cant complain.

 

[Oneflyer]

Just some thoughts about possible "concessions" we might be looking at...

1. On DFW-SAT-DFW turn, f/as would clean the plane at SAT as well as when they get back to DFW (because it is a thru-flight to Fresno. Lotta traffic on that SAT-FAT route, don't you know? ) This would be in line with SWA and some of the other lccs.
2. Set number of personal days per year (that could not be saved and carried over from one year to the next) to be used for sick, vacation, family business, whatever. When they're used up, they're used up. This would be the same or similar to what is being proposed for Delta flight attendants.
3. I would not be surprised to see the company get really serious about attendance issues and "restriction of output" issues, and more f/as than ever getting fired. (On this one, I'm not wholly opposed. Some of them NEED to be fired. And, I'm not just speaking as a junior flight attendant who would move up in seniority. There are some I am embarrassed to have to claim as co-workers.)
4. This centralized FMLA processing will result in fewer termination arbitrations being lost by the company when the issue is attendance and attendance related. No more of this--"The termination is revoked because the company representative did not explain FMLA correctly." Now, while I agree that there are some FSMs out there who don't have a clue on FMLA and probably DID explain it incorrectly, with the contempt that most f/as seem to have for their own FSM, how can they claim to be professionals and then depend upon someone they consider stupid giving them accurate information? It's all out there in print. Maybe the flight attendant should take some personal responsibility to educate himself or herself on the program. They get terminated and then all of a sudden it's "I'm just a poor dumb flight attendant and it made my head hurt to read those pamphlets; so, it's my FSM's fault that I had 13 more chargeable occurrences while I was in pre-termination."

This post is dead on right.

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

Met a female Capt today. She had a bad exsperiance with one of our more disgruntled AMTs in MIA. The FO actually called him an A HOLE

She then began her speech of how we should do our best to turn the ship around and do a good job at work Blah Blah Blah Blah. We cant let this company go out of business Bla Blah Blah.

Then the great question came out of her mouth
Where are you going to find a job that pays like this.

I looked up from the log book and said
When this airline goes belly up either from bakruptcy or our bad attitudes I bet I can find a job making 50K and adjust a lot better than you finding a job and making 50K.
The look on her face told me one thing. Iwas right

If this company wants more they are talking to the right workgroup. The Pilots