APA getting a tad nervous?

[Super FLUF]

Assuming the equity stake was worth $800 million and there are what, 8,000 pilots? That would have been worth $100K per pilot.

You math is not in the galaxy, much less the ballpark.

1. The claim was last estimated at $30,000/pilot along with language that allowed the claim to be diluted 4 ways - which included executive bonuses. After dilution, we may have got NOTHING.

2. The claim is still alive and well and being offered by the UCC.

3. The claim may be re-negotiated and monetized rather than left as a percentage of ownership in the company.


Thank you for your concern though.

 

[Super FLUF]

The APA LBO demanded concessions of about $315 million (down from the term sheet's $370 million)

That's what the company has on paper. What they actually took BY THIER OWN NUMBERS was far more. They later said that the numbers they had previously monetized (and of course, those were low-ball company valuations) our concessions at were "invalid". Imagine that. Using the company's previous figures our concessions were valued at around a BILLION AND A HALF.

and the pilots would have received a 13.5% claim that would likely be worth double or triple the amount of their annual concessions.

Ummmmm....no. The claim would have ultimately been worth pennies on the dollar. I don't know what your advisers have told you but it sounds like they may have exaggerated the value of any claim you may receive.

 

[737823]

Super FLUF,
Please explain to me how the membership has been served better by rejecting the LBFO and having the term sheet imposed through the section 1113 process. Claim victory all you guys want over the initial ruling but the fact is the company got pretty much everything they wanted. Other than the satisfaction of not inflicting the concessions on themselves what did your work group gain by voting no? I look forward to your response.

Josh

 

[Super FLUF]

Josh, the imposed terms are NOT what we will be working under for several years.

Why don't you pose your question AFTER we have signed a deal with the company.

Only then will anyone be able to somewhat accurately say whether we made a "mistake" or not.

 

[jimntx]

Super Fluf, I'm afraid I shall have to report you. First off, you told an alleged frequent flyer (FrequentFlyerCA) that he is wrong. Now, we shall have to award him 50,000 extra AAdvantage miles to soothe his feelings. (A frequent flyer is never wrong. About anything. Even FARs. Haven't you learned that yet?)

And, you are once again attempting to confuse Josh with facts. Don't do that.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Ummmmm....no. The claim would have ultimately been worth pennies on the dollar. I don't know what your advisers have told you but it sounds like they may have exaggerated the value of any claim you may receive.

While there is certainly plenty of uncertainty about the equity stake's value, you seem to be confusing an equity stake with an unsecured claim settlement. An unsecured claim may indeed only be worth pennies on the dollar, depending on the class of the unsecured claim. But an equity stake is shares in the reorganized company's stock and unless multiple classes of stock are issued are worth just as much per share as the execs or any new investors will get per share.

On another note, you mentioned the AA pilot's retirement plan. AA was the only carrier that still had active A and B plans for it's pilots and you only mentioned the B plan as lagging behind industry standard. Omitting the A plan creates a false impression, especially for a former US pilot that worked his last 3 years at the lowest pay/benefits in the industry. It sounds too much like crocodile tears.

Jim

 

[FWAAA]

Appears that some pilots are still in denial.

American Airlines says it still wants to work out a new contract with its pilots, but the union's president says a deal is less likely now that American has imposed its own terms covering pay and work rules.

"The pilots are mad," said Keith Wilson, acting president of the Allied Pilots Association. "This corporation is not treating any of the employee groups with the respect they deserve."

Pilots will work under those terms until the company and union agree on a negotiated contract to replace the one thrown out by a federal bankruptcy judge. Creditors of American parent AMR Corp. say they still want the Fort Worth, Texas, company to negotiate a new contract with pilots, and so does American.

But Wilson, who became acting president of the pilots' union after his predecessor was forced out last month, said in an interview that the path to a deal is now "steeper and higher." He said pilots will be less likely to accept concessions.

However, American had no choice but to set terms for pilots after the union voted down the company's last offer, said Ray Neidl, a longtime airline-industry analyst with Maxim Group LLC.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/union-leader-says-aa-pilots-204349270.html

Sounds like some are forgetting that in bankruptcy, you either vote to accept concessions or larger concessions will be imposed. Unfortunately for the pilots, they chose the latter option despite a much better former option.

 

[Super FLUF]

Yet another "expert" that knows what we will end up with for a final deal.

Thank you for your sympathy. I have sympathy as well - for those that willingly signed their jobs away or those that served up a fill-in-the-blank contract to AA on a silver platter.

 

[Hopeful]

Yet another "expert" that knows what we will end up with for a final deal.

Thank you for your sympathy. I have sympathy as well - for those that willingly signed their jobs away or those that served up a fill-in-the-blank contract to AA on a silver platter.

Personally, I do not relish in what or may not happen to the pilot group simply because my own voted yes.
But, with all due respect, Super, what did you expect? You voted no and decided to call the company's bluff.
Now you, like the rest of AA emloyees have to live with what is going to be implemented.
We're all angry, but it is what it is.

The pilots are going to have certain terms imposed on them and that's the way it is.

I love this article about how the pilots are angry...
What did you guys expect? to be treated better than other employees simply because you're pilots?

You ALL knew what would happen when abrogated...NOW YOU'RE ANGRY?
Did you truly believe that judge would rule in the pilots favor? Did you think the company was bluffing?


http://finance.yahoo...-204349270.html

 

[Flying low]

Maybe and just maybe the pilots are waiting for the all-mighty doug parker to come and save them...

 

[Hopeful]

Maybe and just maybe the pilots are waiting for the all-mighty doug parker to come and save them...

I understand their anger as I understand that of every AA employee. I just don't know what they expected after they voted no.
Just sounds like they thought they would be spared the sword simply because they're pilots.

 

[Super FLUF]

We're all angry, but it is what it is.

Then writes...

You ALL knew what would happen when abrogated...NOW YOU'RE ANGRY?

So, you have the right to be angry, after WILLFULLY signing your own execution order, but if we are angry it is ridiculous and outrageous?

Let's just get it out in the open - you hate the pilots. That is beyond clear from your posts. You blame us for everything bad that happens to you. It couldn't possibly be your own fault. It couldn't be your fault for picking the career you picked. It couldn't be your fault for voting in weak union leadership. It couldn't possibly be your own fault for voting YES to outsource your own job.

It must be the fault of the big bad pilots that are "stealing" from you.

I really don't understand some of you. I show up, I go fly the jet, I go home. We don't sit up in the cockpit and complain how much you or any other labor group makes, nor do we sit and point our fingers at other labor groups when we are hit with a set back. As evidenced by this board alone, obsession with pilot salaries and work rules by other labor groups seems to be a common practice here at American Airlines. Why is that?

Well tell you what "brother", there is a good chance that the pilot group will come out of these negotiations with more than was originally offered. You are just going to have to learn to live with that, and also the ramifications of the McDonalds contract you willing agreed to work under.

 

[Hopeful]

Then writes...



So, you have the right to be angry, after WILLFULLY signing your own execution order, but if we are angry it is ridiculous and outrageous?

Let's just get it out in the open - you hate the pilots. That is beyond clear from your posts. You blame us for everything bad that happens to you. It couldn't possibly be your own fault. It couldn't be your fault for picking the career you picked. It couldn't be your fault for voting in weak union leadership. It couldn't possibly be your own fault for voting YES to outsource your own job.

It must be the fault of the big bad pilots that are "stealing" from you.

I really don't understand some of you. I show up, I go fly the jet, I go home. We don't sit up in the cockpit and complain how much you or any other labor group makes, nor do we sit and point our fingers at other labor groups when we are hit with a set back. As evidenced by this board alone, obsession with pilot salaries and work rules by other labor groups seems to be a common practice here at American Airlines. Why is that?

Well tell you what "brother", there is a good chance that the pilot group will come out of these negotiations with more than was originally offered. You are just going to have to learn to live with that, and also the ramifications of the McDonalds contract you willing agreed to work under.

Where did i say i was blaming the pilots for ANYTHING?

My question was ...what did you expect to happen after the no vote and abrogation?
That''s the gist of my post. I knew damn well what abrogation would have meant for my group. And would have dealt with it if it happened.
But the way you are carrying on seems like "HOW DARE THEY DO THAT TO US...WE'RE PILOTS GODDAMNIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


BTW, I was prepared to be a no vote until the end.

You voted no, you got abrogated, terms will be imposed, eventually you'll get a contract and yea it might be better than what you turned down.

Just keep in mind that between now and then, the terms that will be imposed on you may not be negotiable down the road.
The damage that will be done may be permanent.

 

[Super FLUF]

But the way you are carrying on seems like "HOW DARE THEY DO THAT TO US...WE'RE PILOTS GODDAMNIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are reading that into it and it is because of your preconceived hatred of the pilot group. No one else who objectively reads that article could possibly walk away with that opinion.

Just keep in mind that between now and then, the terms that will be imposed on you may not be negotiable down the road.
The damage that will be done may be permanent.

Gee thanks for the sage advice and "concern". I think we can make decisions on our own.

I'm sure things are running real smooth here at AA so you have nothing to worry about.

 

[Bob Owens]

You are reading that into it and it is because of your preconceived hatred of the pilot group. No one else who objectively reads that article could possibly walk away with that opinion.

Gee thanks for the sage advice and "concern". I think we can make decisions on our own.

I'm sure things are running real smooth here at AA so you have nothing to worry about.

Keep up the fight Fluff, remember that odds are most of the mechanics you run into feel the same way you do and wish we were there next to the pilots in court. Three out of Four Line Mechanics voted against the POS. In the Northeast it was 96% NO. Odds are once the EOs and layoffs are done that figure moves closer to 99%. Dont mind Hopeful, he apparently has anger issues against Pilots and ex-TWA workers. Dont know why, but I'm sure you have your share of guys like him as well. So yea we may have to "live vicariously" through you guys but if and when you set up pickets lets us know so I can encourage my peers to show support.

When I first took office I kept hearing how the International and some of the elected suck ups (who have since been voted out by their members) would constantly criticise the APA. Mostly because of the more militant approach your leaders were taking back then (2009) while our Union was taking its sadly predictable "ass kissing and bootlicking" approach ("Musn't upset management, what you want us to support Anti-trust immunity? Sure , how about if we move on article 4? Oh, I'm sorry, wont try that again, how would you like that letter of support written? What now you want to change the QAM and allow mechanics with no experience on the line three years into negotiations, sure-no problem where do I sign?). I was sick of hearing it,so I got a hold of your pay scales (which as you know are way better than ours- you guys fought for it) and E-mailed it to all those guys and told them how I could only wish we were as screwed up as the APA-never heard anymore criticism about the APA.

The fact is the APA, even when you had soft leadership, does a better job educating and representing the membership than any other union on the property. Over the years they have continued to focus on professionalism and been willing to take on AA's bullying management. You guys look down the road a bit, not like us. You guys protect your profession and realize that by doing so you all gain. IMO as one of the Big Three the likelyhood of ever being allowed to strike are very slim. But you guys obviously realize that you are fighting to preserve your profession and should you give in and establish a new bottom for the industry, when UAL or Deltas pilots go into negotiations those airlines, even if they are showing profits, will demand similar concessions from them, and when they dont get them they will be on a fast track to a PEB where the government will give them to them. You would have no chance of ever seeing your careers rebound. By voting NO you could be the ones to get into a PEB first, and they would be basing their recommendation on what Delta and UAL are getting instead of a few years from now basing their contracts on what you gave up. To do anything else would be contrary to 75 years of NMB practice. Sure it may get a little rough, but there already is a shortage of Pilots. Despite what the courts may say, what the Press may say, what Hopeful may say, what FWAAA may say, what FFCA may say, you guys have plenty of power and you should use it when the time is right.

We screwed our profession, the only thing that will drive wages back up will be the fact they cant find people willing to come into the profession anymore, then they will lower standards. Unlike Hopeful I hope you guys kick AA's behind. Maybe you wont get a deal till after the six month ME Too clause wears off and the company gets to screw us again but I never banked on it anyway, I'd just love to see workers actually fight and win for a change. We never even got the chance.

Good luck, and I really do wish the pilots the best.