APA getting a tad nervous?

[Mach85ER]

don't forget when the APA wanted the higher non-rev classification ( C-2 ) for the pilots and their family's.

The reason APA asked for a class change has been covered 50 times. If anyone wants to keep repeating the BS incorrect propoganda like your post, go ahead. Ignorance isn't a positive attribute.

Last time, APA saw it's members as D2s getting put behind higher class train reservation/sabre and other groups that AMR traded non-rev benefits for lower salary. APA said all AIRLINE people should be on a higher priority, but can't put that into print for negotiations, they can only say APA. In doing so, the hope was it would be like direct deposit (please, don't thank us so profusely) and AMR would give all active employees with the AIRLINE a higher class than the non-airline divisions. AMR gladly ran this to other employee groups claiming the pilots were trying to screw them, and legions of rather ignorant fools bought the line. Not you of course if you don't beleive AMR

 

[Mach85ER]

FE's also had the option to get their licenses and fly as pilots. I flew with a TransCarib former mechanic who was also a FE. I've also flown with several former AA Mechanics, Agents and Flight Attendants who are now AA pilots including Captains. It of course requires initiative and dedication, but they were all welcomed and respected with open arms.

Let me know ahead of time the next time you show up for a debate unarmed I'll stay home and let you look informed.

 

[bigjets]

Thanks for the real info, never take the word of an A scaler ( old time mechs who gave us the B scale )

 

[Super FLUF]

The pilots made a series of crazy demands under the Lloyd Hill and David Bates administrations.

Such as?

Taking the negotiations more seriously back then might have enabled all of us to avoid the giant mess we are in now.

What exactly do you mean "take negotiations more seriously?" What (specifically) would you have done differently? I have an intimate knowledge of what happened at the table between both parties for about a 2-3 year period. It sounds like you do as well, so I am keenly interested in your response.

 

[bigjets]

For line mechs there wasn't a big difference between the LBOv2 and the term sheet, but for pilots the difference was great. Don't blame the APA, no union does well in BK, it's just the various degrees of bad. Before BK the APA and APFA were the highest paid ( for the whole of a contract ) where mechs are/were at the bottom.


http://aviationblog....g-changes.html/


http://www.nbcdfw.co...-169608336.html

 

[Super FLUF]

Before BK the APA and APFA were the highest paid

Please show the math on how the pilots were the highest paid. Compared to whom? (and NO, the company is not a reliable or believable "source")

 

[bigjets]

Please show the math on how the pilots were the highest paid. Compared to whom? (and NO, the company is not a reliable or believable "source")

You left out Before BK the APA and APFA were the highest paid ( for the whole of a contract )


What other airline pilot fly's less hours and gets a pension with an A and B fund, with the work rules you had? This is all before AA's BK. Not to mention insurance the pilots had. You have to admit the APA had a really good contract compared to the other airlines (work rules and scheduling flexibility) even after 2003. AA was short sighted in 2003 going after pay instead of work rules, where the big money is at, for all the unions.

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

Please show the math on how the pilots were the highest paid. Compared to whom? (and NO, the company is not a reliable or believable "source")

I don't have data on that in front of me, but I can tell you the pilots will not be the highest paid going forward. Walking away from the package AA offered - especially the large equity stake in the new American Airlines - is a mistake they will live to regret for many years to come. Assuming the equity stake was worth $800 million and there are what, 8,000 pilots? That would have been worth $100K per pilot.
Ouch.

 

[Bob Owens]

. AA was short sighted in 2003 going after pay instead of work rules, where the big money is at, for all the unions.

Not really, they probably would not have gotten it.

The pilots probably would have told them to go BK, which was the pilots(and our) mistake. After we gave up so much without going BK, we gave more than those who had already gone, USAIR had to come back for a second bite, UAL stayed in for several more years and Delta jumped in.

 

[Bob Owens]

I don't have data on that in front of me, but I can tell you the pilots will not be the highest paid going forward. Walking away from the package AA offered - especially the large equity stake in the new American Airlines - is a mistake they will live to regret for many years to come. Assuming the equity stake was worth $800 million and there are what, 8,000 pilots? That would have been worth $100K per pilot.
Ouch.

Or it could be worth ZERO when AA goes for a second bite.

They will get more. Didnt the FAs at NWA get an equity package that was over 90% of the concessions after their contract was abrogated? the pilots got a lot more power than the Flight Attendants.

 

[Bob Owens]

It's not just the Super Bowl Holiday bs. The pilots made a series of crazy demands under the Lloyd Hill and David Bates administrations.

Taking the negotiations more seriously back then might have enabled all of us to avoid the giant mess we are in now.

Nah, they were headed here from 2001, they just "kicked the can down the road" a lot longer than the rest.

 

[Mrs. McFly]

I don't have data on that in front of me, but I can tell you the pilots will not be the highest paid going forward. Walking away from the package AA offered - especially the large equity stake in the new American Airlines - is a mistake they will live to regret for many years to come. Assuming the equity stake was worth $800 million and there are what, 8,000 pilots? That would have been worth $100K per pilot.
Ouch.

Some theories out there center around exactly how that equity stake would have been divided. The APA was pretty vague about it and seemed more interested in using it for leverage in merger discussions and the like. What percentage of the stake a pilot would actually see was quite up in the air.

 

[FWAAA]

Or it could be worth ZERO when AA goes for a second bite.

They will get more. Didnt the FAs at NWA get an equity package that was over 90% of the concessions after their contract was abrogated? the pilots got a lot more power than the Flight Attendants.

The NW FAs agreed to $195 million in annual paycuts in their ratified TA and received a claim for $182 million. The NW executives' 5% claim was estimated to be worth $297 million, so the $182 million FA claim was just about exactly 3%.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a07FkG9f4GOY&refer=home

The APA LBO demanded concessions of about $315 million (down from the term sheet's $370 million) and the pilots would have received a 13.5% claim that would likely be worth double or triple the amount of their annual concessions. While anything is possible, I don't believe that the pilots will be offered anything beyond the 17% concessions in the LBO and the 13.5% claim.

The NW pilots gave up $358 million in annual concessions and received a claim worth an estimated $888 million, both numbers in the same ballpark as the APA concessions and the claim offered by AA.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/04/business/04air.html

 

[Super FLUF]

What other airline pilot fly's less hours and gets a pension with an A and B fund, with the work rules you had? This is all before AA's BK. Not to mention insurance the pilots had. You have to admit the APA had a really good contract compared to the other airlines (work rules and scheduling flexibility) even after 2003. AA was short sighted in 2003 going after pay instead of work rules, where the big money is at, for all the unions.

I don't know where you are getting your information but it isn't even in the ballpark. The reason APA members have been so PO'd is because even after carriers like Delta, Northwest, or United went bankrupt they had some work rules that were better than ours. Delta's pay (in bankruptcy) was set to surpass ours. Now they will be earning 30% more with even better work rules. In bankruptcy, Delta pilots were getting 14% into their retirement, which will turn into 15% on 1/14. Ours is 11%.

"Discount" or "Low cost" carriers contracts blow ours away. SWA FOs make about the same hourly wage as our Captains. JetBlue (A320) Captains consistently make over $200,000/yr as their pay is the same as ours and they get time-and-a-half for anything over 78 hrs a month.

APA offered the SWA contract verbatim, complete with all of the "efficiencies" everyone is so worried about, and it was categorically rejected by management. So much for AA management being concerned about this supposed "competitive disadvantage".

The FedEx and UPS carriers pay and work rules are light years ahead of ours.

So where is this mythical "industry leading" compensation package? You would have to start breaking down small carriers (like Hawaiian Airlines) or regional airlines contracts before you could claim that we were "ahead" of someone. I am unfamiliar with the other unions contracts, so I can't speak for how they compare to industry peers. What I can tell you is that APA's contract never was at any time NOWHERE NEAR an industry leading contract.

 

[Hopeful]

I don't know where you are getting your information but it isn't even in the ballpark. The reason APA members have been so PO'd is because even after carriers like Delta, Northwest, or United went bankrupt they had some work rules that were better than ours. Delta's pay (in bankruptcy) was set to surpass ours. Now they will be earning 30% more with even better work rules. In bankruptcy, Delta pilots were getting 14% into their retirement, which will turn into 15% on 1/14. Ours is 11%.

"Discount" or "Low cost" carriers contracts blow ours away. SWA FOs make about the same hourly wage as our Captains. JetBlue (A320) Captains consistently make over $200,000/yr as their pay is the same as ours and they get time-and-a-half for anything over 78 hrs a month.

APA offered the SWA contract verbatim, complete with all of the "efficiencies" everyone is so worried about, and it was categorically rejected by management. So much for AA management being concerned about this supposed "competitive disadvantage".

The FedEx and UPS carriers pay and work rules are light years ahead of ours.

So where is this mythical "industry leading" compensation package? You would have to start breaking down small carriers (like Hawaiian Airlines) or regional airlines contracts before you could claim that we were "ahead" of someone. I am unfamiliar with the other unions contracts, so I can't speak for how they compare to industry peers. What I can tell you is that APA's contract never was at any time NOWHERE NEAR an industry leading contract.

Just a question here, and not being sarcastic... but DO or DID any of the carriers either before or after their bankruptcies have the same SCOPE language as the APA has with AA? It seems to me that pilot SCOPE is cited as a competitive disadvantage as is IN HOUSE maintenance is with respect to the M&R group. I don't think salaries with the pilot, f/a and mechanic groups could ever be an issue. For instance the fleet service guys took a 2% reduction DOS.