APA getting a tad nervous?

[777 / 767 / 757 Love]

I understand. But let's look at the alternative. They get abrogated....The still negotiate. But it lingers on well beyond the exit from BK. Suppose it goes on months and months maybe years more!
Do you realize the further damge and changes that will occur to the pilots during the interim?

Keep in mind pilot SCOPE affects us as well.

The reason I started this topic is because the pilots were talking tough after they voted no. Then they threatened with a strike vote and NOW they are saying "no need to abrogate us,,just impose what we voted down."

Heck, that may very well play out. Who knows.....

Bottom line is the vote is done with, and is pretty much out of the hands of the APA, and in the hands of the judge. I assume the APA did its best job of relaying to membership the pros and cons of voting down the LFBO. Like everything in life, choices come with consequences, and you don't get to undo the choice when you decide you may not like the consequences.

An aquaintence of mine voted "yes" to the contract that I WAS SURE would vote no. I was speechless when he told me how he voted as he WAS LIVID at the company after the first term sheet came out in the Spring, so I thought never in a million years will he vote on any contract that appears conessionary in nature (especially since he was around for the first rape job in 2003 --- which by the way was poorly negotiated by both sides, they should have focused 100% on greater productivity, flexibility and re-working of SCOPE, not pay and compensation---would have been better for both sides and probably would have not been as good as FULL SCOPE, but better than where things look like they will end up). But I guess he viewed the pay increase, equity share and the changes to SCOPE as being not great, but realistically better than the alternative (abrogation).

I have no idea if he is right or wrong. I have my own opinions (but I get flamed when I reveal those). I will say this, management has the right to say "you voted no, now you get to roll the dice because you made us go to the courts" HOWEVER, if the company imposes the exact terms of that LBFO that was voted down, I think that would be a wise move, and a huge olive branch if you ask me, to do otherwise I feel will be a very bad move on part of management. Hopefully, the APA membership would agree. Although, with the UCC statement about no equity if the LBFO is voted down, I'm sure Horton and company could get the UCC to change their mind on that.

Cheers,
777 / 767 / 757

 

[777 / 767 / 757 Love]

If a pilot voted yes, you gotta think that they can't be very happy that they were outvoted by pilots who let their emotional hatred overrule their financial good sense.

That is funny, because a retired former APA member said the EXACT same things to me. But hey, maybe the "no" votes got it right.

Cheers,
777 / 767 / 757

 

[bigjets]

Maybe for the same reasons the twu faithful said if we voted no then we would get something worse event though our t/a was what AA said they could live with. I think the company should not give the term sheet because there is no need for that.

I understand your point, but I heard the pilots complaining much like I heard mechanics, and FA's complaining that we could get a better contract from the "judge" well it's time to see if those big mouths were correct.

I voted no expecting the term sheet, and was ready for the consequences, I had no illusion that the judge was going to give us a fair contract, recognizing all of our sacrifices for the past decade. I was ready for our union to go back to negotiations after AA was out of BK, the pilots should be ready for the same. It looks like they voted on emotion instead of reason, the pilots had more to lose then an .82 cent raise, and 5.5% match, that is what we would have given up.

 

[bigjets]

That is funny, because a retired former APA member said the EXACT same things to me. But hey, maybe the "no" votes got it right.

Cheers,
777 / 767 / 757

No they didn't, whenever they get a new contract, it will never make up for what they will lose over the next couple of years of negotiating. And what will they have to give up to get anything close to their old scope clause.

 

[777 / 767 / 757 Love]

No they didn't, whenever they get a new contract, it will never make up for what they will lose over the next couple of years of negotiating. And what will they have to give up to get anything close to their old scope clause.

Hey, I agree with you, but I feel like if I don't preference every statement I make, I get burned at the stake on here for being ANTI-UNION (which I'm so not). The level headed APA and former APA guys I talk to see it the way I do (which is impressive, because they are / were in it which makes it harder to objectively view things): APA is screwed cause the "No" votes came on emotion, not common sense. The other unions are going to be sitting at the big table and with some nbice financial reward in equity.

Cheers,
777 / 767 / 757

 

[Flying low]

I understand your point, but I heard the pilots complaining much like I heard mechanics, and FA's complaining that we could get a better contract from the "judge" well it's time to see if those big mouths were correct.

I voted no expecting the term sheet, and was ready for the consequences, I had no illusion that the judge was going to give us a fair contract, recognizing all of our sacrifices for the past decade. I was ready for our union to go back to negotiations after AA was out of BK, the pilots should be ready for the same. It looks like they voted on emotion instead of reason, the pilots had more to lose then an .82 cent raise, and 5.5% match, that is what we would have given up.

Didn't the judge say that he wasn't even going to be considered anything we gave up in the past?

 

[Mach85ER]

\ APA is screwed cause the "No" votes came on emotion, not common sense. The other unions are going to be sitting at the big table and with some nbice financial reward in equity.

Cheers,
777 / 767 / 757

You and FWAAA are basically screwed in the head if you think this was just an emotion vote. Take a look at the demographics of the APA group. We average 12 or more years of seniority at a minimum with an average age probably over 50. 99% are college educated with graduate degrees more common than not. More than half are military officers, many still current and most are Major and above including Generals and Admirals.

Give me a break if you think this vote was made by a bunch of addled school girls jilted by their latest boyfriend on Facebook. Do you think emotion was a big factor for guys walking (yes I mean walking) around Balad, Bagram and Khandahar? Not quite. Most are just tired of the Bullshit of which that POS offer was. The vote was made on sheer pragmatism. Feel free to send my post to your "retired" APA buddy. I've found they were the most clueless pilots we had before they retired and can assure you, life is completley different for narrowbody pilots of today versus your buddies 3 trips to NRT a month when he retired. Horton could have had a deal. Everyone knew it would be tough for awhile before things got better. Horton decided he was going to stick it to the pilots forever. F.H. forever for that.

 

[eolesen]

Didn't the judge say that he wasn't even going to be considered anything we gave up in the past?

Yep. That's past history. The only considerations being evaluated were the current book.

 

[Bob Owens]

The biggest cost disadvantage for them was doing all OH work in house. That is now changed for good.

We really dont know that, but the only thing that AA could cite was they do more work in house. If it really was a disadvantage then why did they actually decrease outsourcing and bring more work in house since 2003?

 

[Bob Owens]

Yep. That's past history. The only considerations being evaluated were the current book.

Current industry. Thats why he did not abrogate the pilots contract and why ours probably woulld not have been either.

BK is there to relieve debtors of onerous contracts, not give debtors the right to impose onerous contracts.

 

[Bob Owens]

Didn't the judge say that he wasn't even going to be considered anything we gave up in the past?

Isnt that what bigjets just said?

 

[Bob Owens]

Hey, I agree with you, but I feel like if I don't preference every statement I make, I get burned at the stake on here for being ANTI-UNION (which I'm so not). The level headed APA and former APA guys I talk to see it the way I do (which is impressive, because they are / were in it which makes it harder to objectively view things): APA is screwed cause the "No" votes came on emotion, not common sense. The other unions are going to be sitting at the big table and with some nbice financial reward in equity.

Cheers,
777 / 767 / 757

People who voted YES are the ones who voted on emotion, and that emotion is called fear.

 

[Bob Owens]

off topic: is that Howard Stern, Gene Simmons, or your lawyer?... Sheesh.

Is that a picture of you in your avatar box?http://www.google.co...MQ9QEwAQ&dur=63

You know what they say about people in glass houses?

 

[Bob Owens]

I doubt it. The pilot spokesman also made it clear the APA will NOT strike unless released from the NMB...And that is highly UNLIKELY.

There are other options besides a strike.Remember UALs "Summer of Hell". The company tried to get a court action but the court had nothing to go after.

 

[Hopeful]

There are other options besides a strike.Remember UALs "Summer of Hell". The company tried to get a court action but the court had nothing to go after.

And what's that going to do for my paycheck?