Another Airline Shattered

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Ronin:

This is a serious question, because I really don't know the answer. What is the highest paid position a "rank and file" mechanic holds at UAL? For an average work month, what is the total compensation per year? Thanks.

We all know your above quote is a tongue-in-cheek exageration, but just in case you truly believe that a pilot only works 780 hours a year for 160K a year, can I add some realistic perspective from the pilot's side of the fence?

You always quote the salaries of the very very top of the pilot food chain. FYI...There are 2,005 pilots on the September seniority list in ORD. Of those 2,005, only 64 pilots are B747 Captains and 109 are B777 Captains. That is 8%. That 8% of the pilot group has a "good gig," as you put it. But it took them 25 years to get there, and they do have a tremendous amount of responsibility.

Now this 780 hours per year subject. You do know pilots only get paid when the brakes are released, right? Pilots have to be at operations 1 to 1.5 hours prior to each flight for planning, preflighting etc. 90 percent of the pilot's duty days are scheduled for 8 to 14 hours.

This is how I figure my "average American worker" pilot salary. I took the first 50 lines of flying on the Airbus fleet. There were 174 lines, but I thought 50 was enough to bring the point home. Besides, I've got time, but not that much time. I added up the TAFB, "Time Away From Base," of each line and divided by the 50 lines. The total came to an average of 335 hours per month away from base.

Now, Since you love to throw those completely unbiased and accurate earnings figures our way, let me throw a few back. The above average would equate to working EVERY DAY of the month for 11 hours 10 minutes.

Ya don't want to count the time we are trying to sleep in a hotel at the Newark International Airport field layover in the middle of slumsville missing our kid's soccer game or school play? OK...Take out 153 hours (17 days x 9 hrs/night) of away time. (I used 17 days of work because that was the average of reserve and line-holder days of work) That leaves 182 hours of "work." Divide that by an 8 hour work day, and that results in 22.75 days of work per month, 8 hours a day. I didn't include your lunch break each day, because you aren't actually working right? Can't count that. That is why I used 8, instead of 9 hours. 182 hours of work per month equals 2,184 per year. Oops, just blew the aveage out of the water. People need to stop focusing on the way pilot pay is calculated. It results in a warped view of actual work vs. pay. I think most guys would be fine with cutting the pay rate to one third the current pay rate, and just receive pay for time on duty with UAL.

Don't forget the training days every 9 months. In 320 initial training, I had 80 hours in a Fixed based and full motion Simulator, 40 hours of classroom, and another 12 hours of evac/ditching/ept. This is why they "guarantee" you 65 hours of pay a month. There is more to the pay than flying the aircraft.

Ronin, I know you are with your wife and kids more than double the time the average aircrew spends with theirs. You may take it for granted, maybe not. But when you tell me I make too much for doing too little, I respectfully disagree. I don't see the B747 Captain pay, and won't for 20 more years. I see 20 days away from my family every month. My salary? A guarantee of $70,200 a year as a 6 year A320 co-pilot. Too much? Maybe for some. Fair? I think so. Can I make more? If I work more. Pilot's do make an above average salary. The most senior pilots flying the biggest equipment with the most responsibility make a great salary. Most guys and gals became pilots because it is a "good gig." Compare your salary to the "average American mechanic," and I bet you find yourself with a "good gig." Positions in any career that demand more responsibility and qualifications and training and experience, etc., will always pay above average wages. This applies to both you and me.

Do I make 160K a year for 780 hours? Come on, Ronin. You are a smart man. Please stop the inflamatory exagerations. Your rhetoric is a cancer that pulls at the very fabric of our company.

I've wasted about an hour of my time writing this. But, I wanted to write a little something in reply, just in case those folks who aren't in the business read your crap and actually believe half of it.

[post="179679"][/post]​

An eloquent lesson in the details of airline pilot pay, BigRed1. I have been enlightened, but not converted. Unfortunately, present pay scales cannot be supported at the high end of the seniority scale. New entrant pilots flying new planes at new airlines will always produce a seat mile much cheaper than a senior pilot at a legacy carrier, notwithstanding the greater productivity of the larger aircraft and the longer segment length.

 

[The Ronin]

Ok, that takes the "misinformed" award of the year. If you have been around the airline for any amount of time (and paid ANY attention), you know that we work a LOT MORE than those measly hours we get paid. You (Ronin) are trying to make it sound like we actually only work a few hours a month. UNTRUE A three day trip gets paid about 15 hours if it's international, about 10 if it's domestic.......but we are GONE for 3 full days. Get it? WE GET PAID ONLY WHEN THE PLANE IS MOVING!!!!!!!!! So, if the airline schedules horribly (if?! LOL) then we spend a lot of time sitting around, in uniform, answering questions, serving drinks, being nice, not allowed on cell phones, etc, etc, etc for FREE. I love this job! :elvis:

[post="179638"][/post]​

Just WAIT A F*CKING MINUTE....YOU ASS****S PICKED A JOB YOU KNEW WOULD KEEP YOU OUT ON THE ROAD!!!! Or am I mis-informed on this point too??? I guess you figured you'd get up at 6 and be home around 5 right, even if you had to fly to BKK huh??? What WERE you thinking when you read the job description??? Its like a nurse who is shocked she has to be around sick people....a cop who has to be around criminals...jesus...un-freak'n real. I'd fire you f*ckers for bringing up such stupid sh*t...

 

[The Ronin]

Ronin:

This is a serious question, because I really don't know the answer. What is the highest paid position a "rank and file" mechanic holds at UAL? For an average work month, what is the total compensation per year? Thanks.

We all know your above quote is a tongue-in-cheek exageration, but just in case you truly believe that a pilot only works 780 hours a year for 160K a year, can I add some realistic perspective from the pilot's side of the fence?

You always quote the salaries of the very very top of the pilot food chain. FYI...There are 2,005 pilots on the September seniority list in ORD. Of those 2,005, only 64 pilots are B747 Captains and 109 are B777 Captains. That is 8%. That 8% of the pilot group has a "good gig," as you put it. But it took them 25 years to get there, and they do have a tremendous amount of responsibility.

Now this 780 hours per year subject. You do know pilots only get paid when the brakes are released, right? Pilots have to be at operations 1 to 1.5 hours prior to each flight for planning, preflighting etc. 90 percent of the pilot's duty days are scheduled for 8 to 14 hours.

This is how I figure my "average American worker" pilot salary. I took the first 50 lines of flying on the Airbus fleet. There were 174 lines, but I thought 50 was enough to bring the point home. Besides, I've got time, but not that much time. I added up the TAFB, "Time Away From Base," of each line and divided by the 50 lines. The total came to an average of 335 hours per month away from base.

Now, Since you love to throw those completely unbiased and accurate earnings figures our way, let me throw a few back. The above average would equate to working EVERY DAY of the month for 11 hours 10 minutes.

Ya don't want to count the time we are trying to sleep in a hotel at the Newark International Airport field layover in the middle of slumsville missing our kid's soccer game or school play? OK...Take out 153 hours (17 days x 9 hrs/night) of away time. (I used 17 days of work because that was the average of reserve and line-holder days of work) That leaves 182 hours of "work." Divide that by an 8 hour work day, and that results in 22.75 days of work per month, 8 hours a day. I didn't include your lunch break each day, because you aren't actually working right? Can't count that. That is why I used 8, instead of 9 hours. 182 hours of work per month equals 2,184 per year. Oops, just blew the aveage out of the water. People need to stop focusing on the way pilot pay is calculated. It results in a warped view of actual work vs. pay. I think most guys would be fine with cutting the pay rate to one third the current pay rate, and just receive pay for time on duty with UAL.

Don't forget the training days every 9 months. In 320 initial training, I had 80 hours in a Fixed based and full motion Simulator, 40 hours of classroom, and another 12 hours of evac/ditching/ept. This is why they "guarantee" you 65 hours of pay a month. There is more to the pay than flying the aircraft.

Ronin, I know you are with your wife and kids more than double the time the average aircrew spends with theirs. You may take it for granted, maybe not. But when you tell me I make too much for doing too little, I respectfully disagree. I don't see the B747 Captain pay, and won't for 20 more years. I see 20 days away from my family every month. My salary? A guarantee of $70,200 a year as a 6 year A320 co-pilot. Too much? Maybe for some. Fair? I think so. Can I make more? If I work more. Pilot's do make an above average salary. The most senior pilots flying the biggest equipment with the most responsibility make a great salary. Most guys and gals became pilots because it is a "good gig." Compare your salary to the "average American mechanic," and I bet you find yourself with a "good gig." Positions in any career that demand more responsibility and qualifications and training and experience, etc., will always pay above average wages. This applies to both you and me.

Do I make 160K a year for 780 hours? Come on, Ronin. You are a smart man. Please stop the inflamatory exagerations. Your rhetoric is a cancer that pulls at the very fabric of our company.

I've wasted about an hour of my time writing this. But, I wanted to write a little something in reply, just in case those folks who aren't in the business read your crap and actually believe half of it.

[post="179679"][/post]​

Actually, I appreciate the perspective and info. I calculate as per airlinepilotpay.com charts that a A320 Capt 6/yr/780hrs= $106,000/yr. Good money and righfully so. As far as being away from home...see above post. Now for some more info....
A-scale line mechanic...$64,000/yr IF he gets 2080/hrs/yr.
I've spent half of my entire adult life doing what I do....
You have a WHOLE 6 yrs with UAL....congratulations....I just said good-bye to a friend of mine that had 14/yrs here, and its game over.
How many nights do you think we're home???? How many weekends do you think I have worked at United....
How many Christmas Eves, Thanksgiving Day, Easter and other holidays do you think I've missed....
And you know why I did it....because I loved the game, good and bad. I did it because it was a stipulation of employment. I did it to provide a living and because I love these machines.
We could do better...we could make a living at our occupation....we could even be successful....BUT NOT WITH THE WAY UAL IS STRUCTURED....and you know it, and I know it, and many others know it....but no one is going to change it except pure economics and market forces. And it's going to exact a heavy price on those that I believe are the future and answer to todays problems. By the time the aristocracy of management is tumbled and the anachronous unionism is dis-assembled....UAL will cease to exist to the detriment of many good and capable people. But until that day, lets hope that I can deliver an aircraft that you can use to do what we are paid to do..."make them fly"...

 

[bigJ]

Just WAIT A F*CKING MINUTE....YOU ASS****S PICKED A JOB YOU KNEW WOULD KEEP YOU OUT ON THE ROAD!!!! Or am I mis-informed on this point too??? I guess you figured you'd get up at 6 and be home around 5 right, even if you had to fly to BKK huh??? What WERE you thinking when you read the job description??? Its like a nurse who is shocked she has to be around sick people....a cop who has to be around criminals...jesus...un-freak'n real. I'd fire you f*ckers for bringing up such stupid sh*t...

[post="179769"][/post]​

I think he was pointing out the fact that pilots sit in a hotel in Grand Rapids for 34 hours and aren't paid for it. I suppose it's ALPA's fault, AGAIN, that pilot's try to explain to you, AGAIN, that management schedules and pilots fly. You know that, which leads to the inevitable question, "why are you such a bitter, little man"?

 

[bigJ]

Actually, I appreciate the perspective and info. I calculate as per airlinepilotpay.com charts that a A320 Capt 6/yr/780hrs= $106,000/yr. Good money and righfully so. As far as being away from home...see above post. Now for some more info....
A-scale line mechanic...$64,000/yr IF he gets 2080/hrs/yr.
I've spent half of my entire adult life doing what I do....
You have a WHOLE 6 yrs with UAL....congratulations....I just said good-bye to a friend of mine that had 14/yrs here, and its game over.
How many nights do you think we're home???? How many weekends do you think I have worked at United....
How many Christmas Eves, Thanksgiving Day, Easter and other holidays do you think I've missed....
And you know why I did it....because I loved the game, good and bad. I did it because it was a stipulation of employment. I did it to provide a living and because I love these machines.
We could do better...we could make a living at our occupation....we could even be successful....BUT NOT WITH THE WAY UAL IS STRUCTURED....and you know it, and I know it, and many others know it....but no one is going to change it except pure economics and market forces. And it's going to exact a heavy price on those that I believe are the future and answer to todays problems. By the time the aristocracy of management is tumbled and the anachronous unionism is dis-assembled....UAL will cease to exist to the detriment of many good and capable people. But until that day, lets hope that I can deliver an aircraft that you can use to do what we are paid to do..."make them fly"...

[post="179780"][/post]​

Ronin,
There are no 6 year 320 captains at UAL. In fact, 6 yr. pilots are in very short supply. You seem to imply a 6 year UAL pilot is a newbie to aviation. This is a rough average:
newhire is 35 yrs. old, pilot is now 41-don't you think they've spent at least "half their enitre adult life doing what they do"?
Is 14 years the junior amt on property, or just at a certain location?
As far as missing things at home, if you work christmas eve, are you home christmas morning? If you miss your kids game in the afternoon, were you there that morning? Pilots and F/A's flying the line have a totally different life regarding time at home then other employees. We all knew it getting into it, but when someone intentionally distorts the facts for whatever pathetic reason, you should expect to called on it.
I've got a new idea for calculating work time...let's just start the meter for an employee when they park their car in the company lot and stop it when the company says they can go home.

 

[v1rotate]

ALPA this ALPA that! IAM this IAM that! Yadda Yadda Yadda Yadda!! Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah...Gee...this sure seems like the way to go. Been there, done that.

Here is the bottom line. Do not EVER look for unions to be the solution. Unions will never be more than just a crutch for those willing to NOT stand up for themselves.

Time to grow some stones.

V1

 

[Borescope]

V1,

You are exactly right!! What most people don't think about is the business side. Unions are a business they make money off the employees backs. And what do we get? Maybe the most expensive magazine subscription you ever bought. We should all be winning the Publishers Clearing House Sweepstakes

 

[The Ronin]

Ronin,
There are no 6 year 320 captains at UAL. In fact, 6 yr. pilots are in very short supply. You seem to imply a 6 year UAL pilot is a newbie to aviation. This is a rough average:
newhire is 35 yrs. old, pilot is now 41-don't you think they've spent at least "half their enitre adult life doing what they do"?
Is 14 years the junior amt on property, or just at a certain location?
As far as missing things at home, if you work christmas eve, are you home christmas morning? If you miss your kids game in the afternoon, were you there that morning? Pilots and F/A's flying the line have a totally different life regarding time at home then other employees. We all knew it getting into it, but when someone intentionally distorts the facts for whatever pathetic reason, you should expect to called on it.
I've got a new idea for calculating work time...let's just start the meter for an employee when they park their car in the company lot and stop it when the company says they can go home.

[post="179827"][/post]​

Ok, now we are quibbling "tit for tat". I refered to the fact that we knew somewhat of the demands for our jobs.
As you say....the 14yr mark is now a rough average with a few exceptions. With the loss of approx 6000 mechanics, a decade and a half of senority has evaporated.
If you want to discuss "total time" aviation....we can add many more years to the amt equation.
Management....WE HAVE THE WORST MANAGEMENT POSSIBLE IN EVERY ASPECT. There is simply to many to effectively operate either a maintenance or operational department. This is ONE OF THE CORE PROBLEMS with UAL. They manage for the sake of managing....not for the purpose of "operating" a department.

As for unions...I have little to no use for them as a whole. The idea is great, implementation is another. Of course when confronted with our management and their obtuseness, what is the alternative.

 

[maddogdriver]

Since the Ronin is so hell bent on trying to convince everyone all airline pilots make more money and work less than they do, lets talk about they day in the life of Ronin, the "$64,000"/year line mechanic.

THE DAY IN THE LIFE OF RONIN

1-Get to the ready room. Talk.

2-Take nap.

3-Read paper.

4-WHINE

5-Plane comes in. Shows up to plane when the newspaper article is done. Fixes lightbulb.

6-Take nap

7-Walk around terminal

8-WHINE

9-WHINE while returning to ready room

10-WHINE durning dream while napping

11-Return to #1


I've sat here patiently and read line after line of your crap. Is there some truth to what your saying - sure. I know your job first hand sucka. I also know the cockpit first hand. I'm half tempted to give you my file# to prove it. Luckily, most mechanics and most pilots are going in the same direction. Get your head out of your ass. Lets look at what you said last night:

The Ronin said:

"How many nights do you think we're home???? How many weekends do you think I have worked at United....How many Christmas Eves, Thanksgiving Day, Easter and other holidays do you think I've missed...."

-cry me a river you baby. sign up to work at an airline...guess what...work holidays. In fact, why don't I quote you on yourself responding to you. This is exactly what I would say to you - fortunately you said it.

The Ronin said:

"Just WAIT A F*CKING MINUTE....YOU ASS****S PICKED A JOB YOU KNEW WOULD KEEP YOU OUT ON THE ROAD!!!!" (or in Ronin's case at work) Ronin continues-"Or am I mis-informed on this point too??? I guess you figured you'd get up at 6 and be home around 5. What WERE you thinking when you read the job description???"

Ronin, you are way too easy of a target. I could go on for days, but have already spent enough time on your miserable life. Typical employee bitching about everyone but himself. The world owes you. You are entitled to this and that. They are entitled to nothing. ME,ME,ME. WAAAAAAAAAA. I feel sorry for your family. Have a good life. It's unfortunate that a great company with so many great employees has an idiot like you. Do us all a favor-Go take a nap in the ready room and don't wake up. We'll be $64,000 closer to getting out of Bancrupcy.

UNITED WILL STAND

 

[iflyjetz]

Maddogdriver, you're wasting your time and energy. He's a 5%er.

 

[Borescope]

Ronin, where are you? Let fly with one of your great comebacks

 

[The Ronin]

Maddogdriver, you're wasting your time and energy. He's a 5%er.

[post="179946"][/post]​

I'm sorry you and maddogriver feel that way. Why don't you two drop me a private message and we'll arrange a meet. B)

 

[iflyjetz]

I'm sorry you and maddogriver feel that way. Why don't you two drop me a private message and we'll arrange a meet. B)

[post="180034"][/post]​

You've got mail.

 

[atabuy]

I have written about pilots wages, and before anyone thinks I am against them, know I have many friends who were pilots and are now retired.
That being said, the wages generated by the legacy carriers were started during regulation.
All airlines workers were awarded wages on a different set of circumstances than are being used today.
The fact that pilots were given more money for flying bigger aircraft, or jet compared to prop was probably determined back in the 60's or 70's.
I am sure a pilot knows the history better than I do.

Back then with regulation, fares were decided by the CAB. The fare was the same point to point no matter who you flew.
Unions exerted much influence on wages and benefits. We all got a slice of the profits in wage and benefits, with the rest going to the stockholder.
Even then we needed to work safe, or strike to get that slice, and right after that we would have to make up for the raises with more productivity.

The truth is, fares today, will not support the wages and benefits we get.

Somewhere we have to figure how to hang on until they do.
It must be a cut across the board, or it will not work.
Remember that management also is trying to hold onto the people below them to justify their jobs, so we all have self serving interests here.

These are not even options anymore. They are becoming last ditch efforts.

My question to the highest wage owners would be this.

If your payscale is decided on payload, shouldn't everyone who works on that size plane have a higher payscale than if they work on a 737?

 

[The Ronin]

You've got mail.

[post="180055"][/post]​

You too