AMR loses $452 million in first quarter, excluding special items

[Bob Owens]

I don't understand how management has exhibited "hypocrisy" when the unions were fully aware of the PUP/PSP stuff in 2003, and even signed off on it. To top it off they rejected a similar deal for the unionized employees, probably because they didn't want a percentage of pay put at risk in the markets. I understand the griping; everyone gripes about those who make more (myself included). But where's the hypocrisy?

You obviously dont know the difference between hypocrisy and deciet.

"Hypocrisy is the act of persistently professing beliefs, opinions, virtues, feelings, qualities, or standards that are inconsistent with one's actions."

For the last seven years management has been talking about "shared sacrifice" while collecting millions in bonuses.

 

[Hopeful]

I don't understand how management has exhibited "hypocrisy" when the unions were fully aware of the PUP/PSP stuff in 2003, and even signed off on it. To top it off they rejected a similar deal for the unionized employees, probably because they didn't want a percentage of pay put at risk in the markets. I understand the griping; everyone gripes about those who make more (myself included). But where's the hypocrisy?

Without referring to Webster,i would say the hypocrisy is claiming to "Share the Pain, Share the Gain."
They have not nor do they continue to share the pain, only the gains...

Amazing how their "contracts" are iron clad.

 

[FWAAA]

I don't recall...Did he undo the SERPS?
If he did, maybe he would still be here.

As irrevocable trusts, they can't be undone outside a bankruptcy court (just like your defined benefit pensions). The SERP trusts had existed before the late 2002 partial funding, but they had not been funded until the prospect of bankruptcy became more likely.

I do give credit where credit is due. It was under Carty where we did get a decent contract and he did not immediately seek concessions following 9/11. It took almost a year and half before the concessions were force fed us.

This is an place where you and I may agree; I've read postings here that Carty was bad because he waited so long - but in my view, he was an eternal optimist who had no idea that the aftermath of September 11, 2001 would last for so long and would be so severe. He hoped that revenue would bounce back, negating the need to threaten bankruptcy unless the unions conceded large concessions. I think he understood the war that concessions would cause. Anyway, what's done is done and he was propmptly banished from the island.

UAL just reported a loss of $92 million excluding special items. That's one-fifth the size of AMR's loss on a nominal basis and one-fourth the size of AMR's loss on a relative size-adjusted basis. As of today, UAL's unrestricted cash balance is $4.5 billion, the same as AMR, so UAL is in great shape. So far, every other airline is reporting much better results than AMR.

 

[Hopeful]

As irrevocable trusts, they can't be undone outside a bankruptcy court (just like your defined benefit pensions). The SERP trusts had existed before the late 2002 partial funding, but they had not been funded until the prospect of bankruptcy became more likely.

However, in case of a bankruptcy, our defined pension plan does get affected. The PBGC uses an age based calculator to receive a full benefit up to a maximum.

I have seen many an airline bankruptcy where the upper crust gets what's due them....The workers usually are not treated as fairly.

 

[IberiaMAL]

God willing US NEVER merges with the trainwreck that is American Airlines...


What in the world is American Airlines plan on doing to come back in the black

 

[Hopeful]

God willing US NEVER merges with the trainwreck that is American Airlines...


What in the world is American Airlines plan on doing to come back in the black

That's a simple one........EMPLOYEE concessions.

 

[JFK Fleet Service]

God willing US NEVER merges with the trainwreck that is American Airlines...


What in the world is American Airlines plan on doing to come back in the black

Go back to wondering what you're going to do now that United Airlines has come to its senses...

 

[IberiaMAL]

Go back to wondering what you're going to do now that United Airlines has come to its senses...

Picking up some pieces in Dallas and Miami. Nah, I kid.


US Airways, Continental, Delta, and United are supposed to be in the black this year.

- Delta has merged with Northwest. Delta plans on having a profitable 2Q.

- United has gotten it's act together and is running a pofitable operation.They're going to merge with Continental to create the worlds largest airline. They're supposed to be in the black.

- Continental will merge with United. They joined Star Alliance. They're supposed to be in the black this year.

- US airways will focus on it's core strengths in Philadelphia, Charlotte, and Washington DC and cut LGA and Boston. US airways will turn a profit in 2Q.


- American Airlines is waiting for the other airlines cost to rise and is waiting for ATI with British/Ibeira? :blink: American Airlines is supposed to lose a good chunk of money this year... American lost nearly 200 million more than United, Continental, and US combined.

 

[eolesen]

unfortunately, I suspect IBMal's predictions aren't going to be too far off the mark...

 

[Birdman]

unfortunately, I suspect IBMal's predictions aren't going to be too far off the mark...

AA's "significantly higher labor costs" are just killin em.

 

[FWAAA]

God willing US NEVER merges with the trainwreck that is American Airlines...

I agree with you. I hope AMR never combines with US.

In the first quarter, US paid its employees 3.35 cents per ASM. At AA, the employees were paid 4.62 cents per ASM.

If you work for US, you're paid substantially less than a comparable AA employee. I can see why US employees would never want to work for AA's wages.

 

[upsilon]

US Airways, Continental, Delta, and United are supposed to be in the black this year.
- Delta has merged with Northwest. Delta plans on having a profitable 2Q.
- United has gotten it's act together and is running a pofitable operation.They're going to merge with Continental to create the worlds largest airline. They're supposed to be in the black.
- Continental will merge with United. They joined Star Alliance. They're supposed to be in the black this year.
- US airways will focus on it's core strengths in Philadelphia, Charlotte, and Washington DC and cut LGA and Boston. US airways will turn a profit in 2Q.

unfortunately, I suspect IBMal's predictions aren't going to be too far off the mark...

i'm sorry to say that I too agree. In the case of UA and US, their recent BK did the trick. For UA, it was in spite of mis-management. For US it was because of the subsequent merger with, and the management of, America West. In the case of CO, it was their subsequent management teams.

As a former stockholder (but one who had bailed at a loss on the way down), I applauded AA's decision. But now, as a long and loyal customer and in hindsight, I think it was a mistake.

Employee relations would be quite different. The cabin crew work rules would be significantly changed and Jim's 'pet peeves' would no longer exist. The pilot's Scope clause would not be so restrictive as to numbers and seating of aircraft. There would not be PUPs, Shared Sacrifice, Pull Together, Negotiated Give-ups, etc to complain about.

Maybe AA management in BK would have even been wise enough to institute geographical MX pay differentials and also between Line/OH, instead of using the unique complexity of the RLA that practically locks in the non-democratic legacy former NYC transit union TWU, in order to maintain AMT pay at an overall lower but inequitable basis.

Somehow I doubt that either Carty or Arpey would have seen this as an opportunity. I think Crandall might.

 

[JAMAKE1]

I agree with you. I hope AMR never combines with US.

In the first quarter, US paid its employees 3.35 cents per ASM. At AA, the employees were paid 4.62 cents per ASM.

If you work for US, you're paid substantially less than a comparable AA employee. I can see why US employees would never want to work for AA's wages.

Yes. And AA's labor cost structure is not sustainable. Not quite sure why it is so difficult for some of you to grasp...

 

[Hopeful]

Yes. And AA's labor cost structure is not sustainable. Not quite sure why it is so difficult for some of you to grasp...

Then they should go bankrupt and get it over with. Enough of the complaining about labor costs.
Go to the courts and abrogate all labor agreements, give the executives raises to keep them through the "oh so difficult" period in the company's history.

People here are tired of hearing the unions complain about greedy management and their insistence that they can't afford raises. People here are tired of hearing management's continual chant about labor costs.

Go bankrupt already, get it over with, move on.

 

[FWAAA]

I don't understand why Hopeful is such a forceful advocate for bankruptcy. It would mean even smaller paychecks and probably a terminated pension plan. Whatever favorable workrules remain today would likely be lessened. On top of that, the lawyers, accountants, investment bankers and various consultants would siphon off perhaps hundreds of millions, making the total expense of the PUP/PSP plans pale in comparison. UAL paid over $660 million for those expenses during its bankruptcy and I suspect the parasites would try to grab at least that much in an AMR bankruptcy.

I suspect that a Ch 11 filing is in AMR's future, but I don't see why any employee would cheerlead for it.