AMR loses $389 million in 2010, excluding special items

[Bob Owens]

New York or Wilmington? In any event, "on the courthourse steps" is an old phrase used to describe lawyers on the verge of filing papers at a courthouse - it doesn't mean the lawyers are physically standing on the steps. When I've been in that situation, I'm generally standing in the clerk's office.

Anyway, keep on believing that Arpey was chicken and would not have filed Ch 11, unlike UA, US, DL and NW.



On this subject, you're simply wrong. You've been wrong about it for several years. At least you're consistent, even if you're incorrect.

AA's shareholders and board have not agreed to pay bonuses to the executives in the absence of profits.

From the Proxy Statement (near bottom of p25):



http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=117098&p=IROL-secToc&TOC=aHR0cDovL2lyLmludC53ZXN0bGF3YnVzaW5lc3MuY29tL2RvY3VtZW50L3YxLzAwMDA5NTAxMjMtMTAtMDM3NjM1L3RvYy9wYWdl&ListAll=1

In sum, no executive bonuses have been authorised or paid in 10 years.

See the chart on page 34 of the Proxy Statement. Notice the $0 for all execs in the column labeled "Bonus?"

It's apparent that you (and most of your fellow AA employees) don't understand executive compensation. It is a complex web of base salary and assorted long-term compensation, most of which is "at-risk."

I realize that the reports that Arpey and the other greedy bastard execs earned millions in variable compensation in recent years angers you and your fellow employees, but to describe the compensation paid to Arpey and the others as "bonuses" is simply not accurate.

Twas New York,
Pups, Incentive pay, "variable compensation"call it whatever you choose to call it, as far as we are concerned we will continue to refer to them as "Bonuses", money in addition to their base salary determined by some performance related metric. The shareholders agreed to these payments even if the company didnt produce a profit. So obviously profits were not that important to them, if they were they would have fired all of them a long time ago and not built in millions of dollars of Bonuses without producing profits.

 

[FWAAA]

No, Bob. Your post above assumes that the only workgroup to which I was referring is maintenance, which is not the case. I realize that it's the center of your universe, but the numbers don't lie, and neither do I, despite your repeated assertions (that you can't back up) that I'm lying. $3.2 billion at UA compared to $1.62 billion for the represented employees at AA.

As a whole, UA employees gave up far more on average than AA employees. Productivity? AA's pilots and FAs fly less than almost any other airline and yet their pay is at the top of the legacy scale.

Mechanics? Yes, mechanics make more at than you at some of the legacies, but overall, employees at UA, NW, DL and US took much larger paycuts than the average AA employee. That's why DL+NW and UA+CO have total compensation expenses about the same as AA despite both having more employees than AA.

 

[737823]

So said, condescendingly, patronizingly and arrogantly, by the one whose industry was saved by a government bailout (TARP).

So stating the truth is condescending, patronizing and arrogant? Everything I posted is true-that AA employees have fared better than counterparts at carriers that have filed BK. I also stated that give the dynamics of current job market (particularly for airline employees), union employees at AA need the company more than the company needs them.

Didn't the airline industry receive substantial government assistance immediately following the September 11th attacks?
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/01_48/b3759036.htm
http://articles.cnn.com/2001-09-21/us/rec.congress.airline.deal_1_airline-bailout-airline-industry-major-carriers?_s=PM:US

The general public has benefited substantially from the Troubled Asset Relief Program, and for the record my employer didn't partake. Were AIG, Bank of America, Citigroup, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan or Wells Fargo to fail the public would have been the biggest losers given the macroeconomic implications. Citigroup, as an example, repaid TARP in December 2009 and the government recently sold its final remaining shares for a total gain of $12 billion. Can the same be said for the heavily unionized airline and auto industry bailouts?

Here in Boston and New York if AA, Delta or any other single airline went bust another carrier would quickly enter the market to fill the void. If one of the Big 3 automakers ceased to exist and abruptly shut down it wouldn't have the same damaging consequences in the Northeast as it would in Michigan, Ohio or other parts of the midwest. The same can't be said if one of the large banks failed-everyone everywhere would be in a panic and we would likely have seen even smaller (relatively) more stable financial institutions fail as well.

Josh

 

[commavia]

Would AA? Obviously not. They continue to bring work back in house, contractually they could shed around 20% of their mechanics but instead they are looking to hire 900 more. (Once the contract passes they will really be hurting, a lot of guys are just sticking around for the retro. We are talking mass exodus, like "83". I'm not just talking about retirees, for many this has become the "second job", they are tired but they dont want to walk away from three years of retro.)

Makes sense - if you have the capital sunk into existing maintenance infrastructure, and you can't offload it to anyone (who is going to buy AA MRO?), you might as well at least maximize utilization and make the best of a "sub-optimal" - by some perspectives - situation.

Isnt AA looking to shed its Regional carrier? Didnt Delta just put in a big order that will phase out their regional partnerships?

AA is trying to get rid of their regional, but not because they don't want to shift more flying to the regionals. They definitely do.

They want to get rid of Eagle because Eagle is so high-cost and nowhere near as cheap as some other regional operator peers.

Mechanics? Yes, mechanics make more at than you at some of the legacies, but overall, employees at UA, NW, DL and US took much larger paycuts than the average AA employee. That's why DL+NW and UA+CO have total compensation expenses about the same as AA despite both having more employees than AA.

And again, let's not forget that there are far fewer of them at some other airlines which explains why they may be, on average, making more at some - though not all - other airlines. It is logical that if you can shift more and more of the volume of your cost-generation in a given cost bucket - in this case, maintenance - to lower-cost vehicles, then you can afford to pay what's left a bit more. But how many mechanics does United employ versus AA?

And, let's further not forget that United and Delta are not AA's only competitors. Low-fare carriers like JetBlue, Frontier, etc. are setting fares in many markets these days, and I'm guessing their mechanics pay isn't exactly dramatically higher than AA.

 

[Bob Owens]

Mechanics? Yes, mechanics make more at than you at some of the legacies, but overall, employees at UA, NW, DL and US took much larger paycuts than the average AA employee. That's why DL+NW and UA+CO have total compensation expenses about the same as AA despite both having more employees than AA.

Well we probably have a lot more management than they do and our managers make more than they did going into 2003. Can you say "Rise" program, in reality it was a "Raise" program. Supervisors were re-classified as managers and they pay was adjusted accordingly.

I'm only talking workers here, we know that Arpey and all his gang are considered employees as well and get added into the average and that on average they didnt get their pay and benifits cut like the average airline worker.

 

[Bob Owens]

And, let's further not forget that United and Delta are not AA's only competitors. Low-fare carriers like JetBlue, Frontier, etc. are setting fares in many markets these days, and I'm guessing their mechanics pay isn't exactly dramatically higher than AA.

You would be wrong, Jet Blue pays their mechanics $38/hr, $5/hr more than AA at JFK.

 

[eolesen]

Arguing facts against union rhetoric is a pointless and futile effort.

Effectively, anything that management makes above and beyond the highest paid union worker will always be considered a bonus.

Management is cooking the books, and GAAP reporting is just a fantasy.

AMR really didn't have lawyers and corporate officials in New York back in 2003, even though I saw them on the flight manifests to LGA. They must have been going to titty bars in Queens because Rick's hadn't been built yet.

Oh, and AA's employees are more productive than any other airline. More employees means more productivity.

Some of you will believe that AMR has been cooking the books all the way up to and including the day they actually file for bankruptcy. Lots of cash onhand right now, so it's unlikely this year, but in the event of a strike (crapshoot) or a fuel spike (quite likely), that cash will dwindle pretty quickly.

 

[eolesen]

Arguing facts against union rhetoric is a pointless and futile effort.

Effectively, anything that management makes above and beyond the highest paid union worker will always be considered a bonus.

Management is cooking the books, and GAAP reporting is just a fantasy.

AMR really didn't have lawyers and corporate officials in New York back in 2003, even though I saw them on the flight manifests to LGA. They must have been going to titty bars in Queens because Rick's hadn't been built yet.

Oh, and AA's employees are more productive than any other airline. More employees means more productivity.

Some of you will believe that AMR has been cooking the books all the way up to and including the day they actually file for bankruptcy. Lots of cash onhand right now, so it's unlikely this year, but in the event of a strike (crapshoot) or a fuel spike (quite likely), that cash will dwindle pretty quickly.

 

[commavia]

You would be wrong, Jet Blue pays their mechanics $38/hr, $5/hr more than AA at JFK.

And do they have defined benefit pensions?

And what are their benefits like?

And what are their work rules?

And how many hours do they work each week?

And what kind of work do they do at JFK? And is that comparable to the work AA mechanics do at JFK?

And how many of them (JetBlue mechanics) are there?

And how many overhauls do they do?

 

[737823]

You would be wrong, Jet Blue pays their mechanics $38/hr, $5/hr more than AA at JFK.

Okay, then this is nothing more than an example of how dysfunctional and unnecessary the TWU is if as you (a union advocate) are readily admitting that your at-will counterparts and B6 are making more-and they don't have to pay outrageous union dues!

Josh

 

[telebender1956]

AA Management= Their lips are moving again!

 

[FWAAA]

Isnt AA looking to shed its Regional carrier? Didnt Delta just put in a big order that will phase out their regional partnerships?

Yes, AA is looking to shed Eagle just like CO did 10 years ago. Some braintrust at HDQ thinks it will improve AA's finances (I disagree and think it makes sense to own Eagle).

Delta has ordered nothing yet; it asked airplane makers for proposals to replace its narrowbody Airbus and Boeings. DL will not be phasing out their regional partnershps anytime soon.

 

[odie01]

Yes, AA is looking to shed Eagle just like CO did 10 years ago. Some braintrust at HDQ thinks it will improve AA's finances (I disagree and think it makes sense to own Eagle).

Delta has ordered nothing yet; it asked airplane makers for proposals to replace its narrowbody Airbus and Boeings. DL will not be phasing out their regional partnershps anytime soon.

After viewing the companies presentation it makes sense on how they came up with a loss in Q4 2010



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vU5LoCLGMdQ

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

The fact is that when you take you average worker, include benifits, vacation, holidays, sick time etc, most of those who went BK are as well as or better off than AA. Delta makes quite a bit more than we do. So does Continental.

To me this is one of those too good to be true statements. Bob, or anybode else, do you have the numbers (hourly wages, benefits, vacation, pensions) to post for comparison?

 

[AANOTOK]

To me this is one of those too good to be true statements. Bob, or anybode else, do you have the numbers (hourly wages, benefits, vacation, pensions) to post for comparison?

How funny, I was just gonna ask FWAAA the same thing!