AMFA

[WeAAsles]

Hey guys. I'm new here so I'm not looking to inflame anyone, just curious? I work in fleet and I hear alot of people on here touting up a vote to go with AMFA? I'm not any happier than anyone on here at the way TWU handled themselves in 03 but is AMFA really a viable alternative? They obviously did a horrible job at Northwest. I know you'll say that none of the other unions supported them but it's because they ostricise themselves. They raid other unions for there membership and then act like they have the only membership on property that should matter. Don't get me wrong, you guys went out and got the schooling to get your liscences and become mechanics and should be paid accordinly more than I do. But if AMFA fosters division from the other unions on there premises than doesn't that feed into just what this airline wants? TWU isn't great by no means (I'd rather be Teamsters) but isn't there more strength in numbers?

I really believe the TWU knows this is there last chance to be able to keep the membership at AA on there payroll. There has been alot of mutiny among the locals throughout the system. Trust me it's not just Local 565. Other local presidents are leaking out the negotiation progress between them and the company. The days of being silent and doing whatever the Intl. tells them to do are over. Roger Toussaint of Local 100 started that ball rolling. He defied the Intl. and got his members what they wanted. If Jim Little and the Intl. doesn't start fighting for ALL of us now, then fleet will be joining you guys very soon in looking for new representation.

But I still would love to be educated as to why some of you believe AMFA would be a better alternative?

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Hey guys. I'm new here so I'm not looking to inflame anyone, just curious? I work in fleet and I hear alot of people on here touting up a vote to go with AMFA? I'm not any happier than anyone on here at the way TWU handled themselves in 03 but is AMFA really a viable alternative? They obviously did a horrible job at Northwest. I know you'll say that none of the other unions supported them but it's because they ostricise themselves. They raid other unions for there membership and then act like they have the only membership on property that should matter. Don't get me wrong, you guys went out and got the schooling to get your liscences and become mechanics and should be paid accordinly more than I do. But if AMFA fosters division from the other unions on there premises than doesn't that feed into just what this airline wants? TWU isn't great by no means (I'd rather be Teamsters) but isn't there more strength in numbers?

I really believe the TWU knows this is there last chance to be able to keep the membership at AA on there payroll. There has been alot of mutiny among the locals throughout the system. Trust me it's not just Local 565. Other local presidents are leaking out the negotiation progress between them and the company. The days of being silent and doing whatever the Intl. tells them to do are over. Roger Toussaint of Local 100 started that ball rolling. He defied the Intl. and got his members what they wanted. If Jim Little and the Intl. doesn't start fighting for ALL of us now, then fleet will be joining you guys very soon in looking for new representation.

But I still would love to be educated as to why some of you believe AMFA would be a better alternative?

If you truly wish to be educated you must first stop listening to anything the twu says about AMFA. In that I mean look at the facts as they happen not as the twu makes them appear.

1) Democracy. The twu says they are very democratic. Fact is they are not. How do I proove my point? Well, with facts. When have we ever been given a ballot to elect int. officers? Answer: never. In AMFA all union positions from top to bottom are elected by the full membership. AMFA promotes democracy in the way our craft & profession is protected. The twu appoints those they feel will follow orders.

2) NWA? The strike there was weakened by SCABS. Pure and simple. Why did they strike? Because they had to. NWA gave them a contract to vote on that would elliminate HALF their jobs! They did what the twu would never have done.

3) AMFA fosters division? How? Because they believe in a craft, democratic union like the pilots and f/as? Then those unions foster division too.

IIf you have any more direct questions feel free to ask.

 

[swdriver]

WeAAsles

Be careful of whose advice you take on this matter. Ken is surely not the one to listen to.
He feels that the airplanes cannot fly without mechs. The fact is they can, but they can not fly without the pilots. MX can be farmed out in a
heartbeat, but the pilots can not be.

 

[StraaightTaalk]

WeAAsles

Be careful of whose advice you take on this matter. Ken is surely not the one to listen to.
He feels that the airplanes cannot fly without mechs. The fact is they can, but they can not fly without the pilots. MX can be farmed out in a
heartbeat, but the pilots can not be.

ANYBODY can be farmed out, including pilots and flight attendants. Just ask the Japan Airlines pilots who routinely turn over their aircraft to OUTSOURCED pilots from IASCO in NY to fly the route to Sao Paolo.

If pilots couldn't be farmed out, there would be no need for companies such as WASINC or IASCO.

Nobody's indispensable, bucko.

 

[Bob Owens]

Hey guys. I'm new here so I'm not looking to inflame anyone, just curious? I work in fleet and I hear alot of people on here touting up a vote to go with AMFA? I'm not any happier than anyone on here at the way TWU handled themselves in 03 but is AMFA really a viable alternative? They obviously did a horrible job at Northwest. I know you'll say that none of the other unions supported them but it's because they ostricise themselves. They raid other unions for there membership and then act like they have the only membership on property that should matter. Don't get me wrong, you guys went out and got the schooling to get your liscences and become mechanics and should be paid accordinly more than I do. But if AMFA fosters division from the other unions on there premises than doesn't that feed into just what this airline wants? TWU isn't great by no means (I'd rather be Teamsters) but isn't there more strength in numbers?

I really believe the TWU knows this is there last chance to be able to keep the membership at AA on there payroll. There has been alot of mutiny among the locals throughout the system. Trust me it's not just Local 565. Other local presidents are leaking out the negotiation progress between them and the company. The days of being silent and doing whatever the Intl. tells them to do are over. Roger Toussaint of Local 100 started that ball rolling. He defied the Intl. and got his members what they wanted. If Jim Little and the Intl. doesn't start fighting for ALL of us now, then fleet will be joining you guys very soon in looking for new representation.

But I still would love to be educated as to why some of you believe AMFA would be a better alternative?

AMFA fosters divisions? AMFA has repeatedly declared that they will honor other unions pickets.

You need to take a look at the TWU. Talk about divide and conquer!!! The TWU has its members cross other unions picket lines. They have a history where their officers even cross picket lines and fly struck carriers. When TWU members at Local 562 told Little they were going to walk pickets with the AA flight attendants Little said -Its not our fight and they are not affiliated(AFL-CIO) so we should not support them.

The TWU has divided up this membership along so many different lines its hard to keep track.
21 seperate locals, none of which have any authority over the contract, which belongs to the International-none of the International officers are chosen by the membership.

There is no clear cut structure to the TWU. Members are not organized according contractual, classifiction or locational affiliation. Its hit or miss, you have stations that have two locals and others that have one, locals that have many stations but there may be members in some of those stations that belong to other locals, you may have locals that represent some classifications in some stations but not in others where they have members. Its a complete mess, but as far as the International goes its fine because no matter how screwed up the AA system is, whether we have one local or 21 locals they still get their third of the dues. As long as we are all split up we are weak and they dont have to worry about us like they do Local 100. We are as divided as we ever could be, its as bad as no union at all because the only thing we have in common with union workers is we pay dues.

Are you aware the TWU opened up the present version of the contract in order to give a handful of Title II mechanics at JFK a $5/hr increase (along with the President of Local 501). They kept this hush hush and did not follow the traditional approach of Industrial unionism in that they only gave these workers an increase and everybody else got nothing. Next time a company or union official tells you he cant open the contract to give you a raise call him a liar and bring this up. Years ago the company faced a similar problem when they were having trouble attracting aircraft mechanics and they approached Mike Quill with an offer to only raise mechanics pay, Quill responded that everyone had to see an increase or no deal.

The TWU has become a company union, they are not an industrial union. They have been a useless company union for at least two decades. Mechanics want to go to AMFA because its the only option out there at present because of the fact that no other unions will take us. Is it any suprise that AMFA drives fail in Right To Work states? These people are happy having a company union because they dont want real unions, thats why they live in RTW states and thats why they like the TWU because having the TWU is a close as you can get to being non-union. The No-raid clause is a defacto insurance policy that keeps a company union in place.

What is so wrong with "raiding"? Who gets hurt when the members choose one union over another? An unproductive, unresponsive union thats who. And what is wrong with that? No-raid clauses were not put in to protect union members, they were put in to protect crooked incompetant unions. A true unionist would not look at raiding as such a terrible thing, especially given the alarming trend of union decertifications prompted by corporations where the workers choose to go non-union. If a union was doing a good job then they would not have to worry about raids.

I believe that most TWU members at AA would choose another union if they were given the opportunity. At present fleet service has no other options, and thats why you guys are falling behind even faster than mechanics are, and will continue to do so.

What we should do is start a drive for a new union that will include all those workers currently represented by the TWU. The TWU would probably not be able to thwart such an election because they could not count the same people twice. Once in place at AA we should raid every union in the industry and try to get us all in one big union. Thats something that could get us back where we should be.

 

[WeAAsles]

I believe that most TWU members at AA would choose another union if they were given the opportunity. At present fleet service has no other options, and thats why you guys are falling behind even faster than mechanics are, and will continue to do so.

What we should do is start a drive for a new union that will include all those workers currently represented by the TWU. The TWU would probably not be able to thwart such an election because they could not count the same people twice. Once in place at AA we should raid every union in the industry and try to get us all in one big union. Thats something that could get us back where we should be.

Thank you for the responses gentleman. Real eye openers. I hope that the TWU is finally getting the message. Many good points Mr. Owens. I think this one really (hopefully) could serve as notice that we deserve more than we're getting in our representation. I really am sorry about what happened to the Northwest MX's and we all should have supported them. I hope this never happens agian or else we really should do what you suggest.

 

[Ed Norton]

WeAAsles

Be careful of whose advice you take on this matter. Ken is surely not the one to listen to.
He feels that the airplanes cannot fly without mechs. The fact is they can, but they can not fly without the pilots. MX can be farmed out in a
heartbeat, but the pilots can not be.

Airplanes can't fly without pilots? What world are you living in? Airplanes have been flown by remote control since the 60's; remember the FAA fuel tests with the rc 707? How about land 3 for CAT3c minimums? Ever heard of GLOBAL HAWK?
You are not as indespensable as you think. Besides, there's millions of Chinese pilots out there who only need the blessing of Uncle Sam. Ever heard of an H1B visa?

 

[The Goose]

Airplanes can't fly without pilots? What world are you living in? Airplanes have been flown by remote control since the 60's; remember the FAA fuel tests with the rc 707? How about land 3 for CAT3c minimums? Ever heard of GLOBAL HAWK?
You are not as indespensable as you think. Besides, there's millions of Chinese pilots out there who only need the blessing of Uncle Sam. Ever heard of an H1B visa?

Ed Norton: swdriver has been trying to stir the pot for the last couple months - he's hardly worth responding to, especially with facts.

Probably the child of a management member in Fort Worth learning how to type and get people angry.

I'm really surprised his mommy didn't lock the caps 'on' for him, though.