AMFA vs Idustrial Unions for elections of National Officers

[ThirdSeatHero]

NO. You never went to an arbitration. It was settled out. How can you say you followed law?

You say "NO"?

Okay, where was the law broken?

McCaskill-Bond only requires arbitration if a consenual agreement cannot be reached, it isn't mandatory.

Both sides SWA-AT voted, and both ratified. Where is the violation?

 

[Anomaly]

You say "NO"?

Okay, where was the law broken?

McCaskill-Bond only requires arbitration if a consenual agreement cannot be reached, it isn't mandatory.

Both sides SWA-AT voted, and both ratified. Where is the violation?

And with that, how can you agree with SWAMT that the law was followed to a T ???

According to an article printed on Jones Day 09Feb2012 by Tom Jerman;

While it is clear that the McCaskill-Bond law was passed as a direct response to the American-TWA merger and was intended to prohibit the type of treatment that former TWA employees experienced in that merger, there is little bargaining history that sheds further light on the intended application of the statute. Relatively little case law exists interpreting the statute. As a result, there are a number of open questions with regard to the scope and application of McCaskill-Bond.

First, it is unclear whether Congress, by requiring application of the Allegheny-Mohawk LPPs, intended to incorporate the case law that had developed before the CAB and federal courts under the LPPs. In particular, the case law under the Allegheny-Mohawk LPPs makes it clear that the carrier has the obligation to provide for integration of seniority lists in a fair and equitable manner, and that the employee groups have a right to seek arbitration with the carrier over seniority integration but not with each other. Whether Congress intended to incorporate—or was even aware—of this case law is uncertain.

Second, there are unanswered questions about where the McCaskill-Bond statute applies. In a recent suit by Midwest Airlines flight attendants and the Association of Flight Attendants ("AFA") seeking seniority integration rights in connection with the acquisition of the holding company that owned Midwest Airlines ("MAG"), a district court for the first time construed and applied McCaskill-Bond. Comm.of Concerned Midwest Flight Attendants for Fair and Equitable Seniority Integration v. Int'l Bhd. of Teamsters, No. 10-C-379, 2010 WL 3860366 (E.D. Wis. Sept. 30, 2010). In this litigation, the district court initially concluded that McCaskill-Bond applied to the transaction under which MAG was acquired. On motion for reconsideration, however, the same judge changed his mind, reaching exactly the opposite decision.

The act simply intends to create mergers based on fair and equitable distributions of seniority. Any time you take seniority away from one person, and offer it to another, is not FAIR or EQUITABLE in my book.

Consensual agreement does not always equal FAIR. Especially when the vote is 2300 vs 500.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

At the end of the day, SWAMT is trying to create an issue by initiating that the amfa constitution is somehow more democratic, more American than the Teamsters.

WHERE DO YOU LIVE???

SWAMT and others put down the Teamsters because some of the non executive positions are appointed rather than elected. However, this is as American as you can get. One of the basic reasons is to get the right person for the job, but another, is the ability to keep things running in the event of a complete change in executive board.

What will Aaron do is he is suddenly thrust in to the middle of a bankruptcy negotiation for American Airlines mechanics? He is after all, YOUR amfa second in command but may not know a thing about how to protect you. Do you all have as much faith in the guy as 345 phoenix mechanics? Good luck with that.

The AMFA constitution is more democratic.

All you have to do is look at what happened at UAL to see what a joke these teamster appointees are.

You claim ... "One of the basic reasons is to get the right person for the job" ...

Really?

Petrovsky had been the chair of the shop stewards under the IAM, Molenberg wasn't even part of the grievance machinery he was a Safety Rep... right persons for the job? Yeah right! The truth is they both got GIFTED positions as BAs simply because they collected cards and handed out tshirts and were chairs of the ibt organizing committee. Hell there were other mechanics in the UAL teamster campaign who would've been more qualified for the BA positions.

You're appointees are "YES" men plain and simple.

As for Aaron Hansen, thats just another red-herring argument. AMFA took over during the UAL bankruptcy, and it wasn't the National Director there leading the charge in the court room nor the Assistant National Director. Just like Hoffa & Hall didn't spend any time in the Frontier bankruptcy proceeding. Feel free to cue your cliche ibt lawyer arguments now.

One thing I did find in your post that is VERY telling is this question you posed.....

"...has anyone even heard of Aaron Hansen???? What are his credentials???? ...."

Anomaly, you have repeatedly claimed to have been part of previous AMFA drives on UAL and to have participated in AMFA until the ibt campaign. You have also claimed to be in SFO.

Yet you don't know who Aaron Hansen is, or what his credentials are?

I am in SFO. I was part of 3 AMFA drives prior to UALs certification in 2003, I was active in AMFA up until the ibt change over. Even though I haven't seen nor spoken to the man since the ibt victory, I know EXACTLY who he is, and what his qualifications are .......but you don't. Well thats interesting.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

And with that, how can you agree with SWAMT that the law was followed to a T ???

Consensual agreement does not always equal FAIR. Especially when the vote is 2300 vs 500.

You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

It wasn't 2300 SWA vs 500 AT mechanics. Both groups ratified the SLI agreement seperately, and while it may be your opinion it wasn't fair, the mechanics from both groups voiced through their votes that it was.

 

[swamt]

NO. You never went to an arbitration. It was settled out. How can you say you followed law?

No #### sherlock!! Didn't goto arbitration because, and I quote again for you, "both sides agreed to the 'nego SLI'" therefore, no arbitration required. Like I said, you need to read up on the law before you spout off chief.
Keep up the postings. The more you post the dumber you look. Great job...

 

[1AA]

You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

It wasn't 2300 SWA vs 500 AT mechanics. Both groups ratified the SLI agreement seperately, and while it may be your opinion it wasn't fair, the mechanics from both groups voiced through their votes that it was.

Anomaly has no idea how a democratic union let alone what the word means.

 

[swamt]

You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

It wasn't 2300 SWA vs 500 AT mechanics. Both groups ratified the SLI agreement seperately, and while it may be your opinion it wasn't fair, the mechanics from both groups voiced through their votes that it was.

As well as it was voted in overwhelmingly (84.6%) by the AT guys. The percentile was less on the SWA side for the amount that passed.
Yes, it's very clear he doesn't know what he is talking about.
I will agree with Anomaly on one thing (yes I just said that guys). Our turn out for the National Officers Election was PATHETIC!! 26% turn-out is very sad for the folks at the top. HOWEVER; mr. Anomaly; we can very easily re-call any of these guys (including) Louie Key as the top dog. So let's sit back and watch, if this Aaron Hansen starts screwing up, he will be removed. On another note, he might be the best we ever had, you never know...

 

[Anomaly]

As well as it was voted in overwhelmingly (84.6%) by the AT guys. The percentile was less on the SWA side for the amount that passed.
Yes, it's very clear he doesn't know what he is talking about.
I will agree with Anomaly on one thing (yes I just said that guys). Our turn out for the National Officers Election was PATHETIC!! 26% turn-out is very sad for the folks at the top. HOWEVER; mr. Anomaly; we can very easily re-call any of these guys (including) Louie Key as the top dog. So let's sit back and watch, if this Aaron Hansen starts screwing up, he will be removed. On another note, he might be the best we ever had, you never know...

Third Seat Hero, apparently SWAMT does not really know this guy either.

SWAMT, there are plenty of threads and plenty of posts that describe exactly what you did to the ATA mechanics and how you did it. You want to justify it to your guilty conscience by stating that it was a fair vote. Put yourself in the ATA shoes, and I bet you would not be saying the same thing.

In the end, ATA mechanics made out well with this merger. What a rare opportunity for a mechanic. The shame in the whole process is that something still had to be taken away from them in the end. It is truly shameful that those who took, were the fellow union members and not the company.

 

[DNTULSA]

Third Seat Hero, apparently SWAMT does not really know this guy either.

SWAMT, there are plenty of threads and plenty of posts that describe exactly what you did to the ATA mechanics and how you did it. You want to justify it to your guilty conscience by stating that it was a fair vote. Put yourself in the ATA shoes, and I bet you would not be saying the same thing.

In the end, ATA mechanics made out well with this merger. What a rare opportunity for a mechanic. The shame in the whole process is that something still had to be taken away from them in the end. It is truly shameful that those who took, were the fellow union members and not the company.

Amalamadingdong,

Your are back! How was liar's school?

I heard that you graduated with dishonors.

You are certainly posting like it!

 

[swamt]

Third Seat Hero, apparently SWAMT does not really know this guy either.

SWAMT, there are plenty of threads and plenty of posts that describe exactly what you did to the ATA mechanics and how you did it. You want to justify it to your guilty conscience by stating that it was a fair vote. Put yourself in the ATA shoes, and I bet you would not be saying the same thing.

In the end, ATA mechanics made out well with this merger. What a rare opportunity for a mechanic. The shame in the whole process is that something still had to be taken away from them in the end. It is truly shameful that those who took, were the fellow union members and not the company.

Nothing to justify idiot. I have NO-"0" of a guilty conscience over what happend with the AT boys. I would and will do it all over again without hessitation. It was a fair and equitable deal. The AT mechs forced the teamsters to bring it out for a vote. The teamsters wanted to force it to arbitration, and if they did that, the AT boys would have lost alot more than they already did by the teamsters stalling and wanting more. Just ask the AT pilots how much they lost by trying to play hard ball and stalling out for more. GK set them straight very quickly and they came to their sences after the fact and lost millions over the life of the intregration agreement.
If I were in AT's shoes I would have been willing to start all over to gain what they all gained coming over. The job security, pay raises, bennies, 401K match of 9.3% dollar for dollar, profit sharing, savings from medical cost and premiums, ect, ect... My union did exactly what the membership asked of them. You CANNOT say that about any other union out there that has gone thru a merger, buy-out or aquisition.

Just wait Anomaly; when AA merges with whomever, I don't want to hear a word from you other than dovetail. But this will not happen-trust me. This will be a long and dragged out fight for position for each and every mech at AA and whomever you all merge with. Matter fact I predict you all will end up in arbritration if you and US end up merging together. So you guys better vote in AMFA, as they will protect their current members way better than the TWU, IAM or the teamsters would. Which is the way it should be. Get a clue dude...

 

[swamt]

Nothing to justify idiot. I have NO-"0" of a guilty conscience over what happend with the AT boys. I would and will do it all over again without hessitation. It was a fair and equitable deal. The AT mechs forced the teamsters to bring it out for a vote. The teamsters wanted to force it to arbitration, and if they did that, the AT boys would have lost alot more than they already did by the teamsters stalling and wanting more. Just ask the AT pilots how much they lost by trying to play hard ball and stalling out for more. GK set them straight very quickly and they came to their sences after the fact and lost millions over the life of the intregration agreement.
If I were in AT's shoes I would have been willing to start all over to gain what they all gained coming over. The job security, pay raises, bennies, 401K match of 9.3% dollar for dollar, profit sharing, savings from medical cost and premiums, ect, ect... My union did exactly what the membership asked of them. You CANNOT say that about any other union out there that has gone thru a merger, buy-out or aquisition.

Just wait Anomaly; when AA merges with whomever, I don't want to hear a word from you other than dovetail. But this will not happen-trust me. This will be a long and dragged out fight for position for each and every mech at AA and whomever you all merge with. Matter fact I predict you all will end up in arbritration if you and US end up merging together. So you guys better vote in AMFA, as they will protect their current members way better than the TWU, IAM or the teamsters would. Which is the way it should be. Get a clue dude...

Your silence speaks volumes Anomaly. BTW; don't forget to sign that AMFA card as you promiced...Go AMFA!!!

 

[Anomaly]

Nothing to justify idiot. I have NO-"0" of a guilty conscience over what happend with the AT boys. I would and will do it all over again without hessitation. It was a fair and equitable deal.

Of course you would. We have already figured out your character and those of the others who support your view. It is never a fair and equitable deal when the number of employees between the two groups are so imbalanced. You SWA guys sold out the ATA mechanics. Simple as that. What you had on your side was numbers. That is it. Not fairness or equality, you all wanted to save your own hides and have five year employees stand above 20 year employees. Shameful.

If I were in AT's shoes I would have been willing to start all over to gain what they all gained coming over. The job security, pay raises, bennies, 401K match of 9.3% dollar for dollar, profit sharing, savings from medical cost and premiums, ect, ect... My union did exactly what the membership asked of them. You CANNOT say that about any other union out there that has gone thru a merger, buy-out or aquisition.

Question: Why exactly were you all unwilling to simply go by date of hire?
Answer: Because you are all worried about the next round of lay offs! You know, the ones that normally happen following a merger. I simply can not believe you would be willing to "start over". if the situation was reversed.

This is exactly what theIBT representatives of the ATA mechanics were most concerned about. I do not believe the IBT was going against the majority at ATA. Sure they wanted the pay that went along with SWA, but what good does it do when you go out the door with 20 years of seniority and a 5 year employee gets to stay? If you have the faith in your union that you preach. then why was this an issue at all? With the powerful and mighty amfa at the helm, you should never have to worry about furloughs or station reductions right? BUT YOU WERE

You all doubt your unions ability to keep you employed, and will do anything to add a bit of cushion underneath you. Even if the person you sold out has many more years of experience than you. Inexcusably shameful.

Just wait Anomaly; when AA merges with whomever, I don't want to hear a word from you other than dovetail. But this will not happen-trust me. This will be a long and dragged out fight for position for each and every mech at AA and whomever you all merge with. Matter fact I predict you all will end up in arbritration if you and US end up merging together. So you guys better vote in AMFA, as they will protect their current members way better than the TWU, IAM or the teamsters would. Which is the way it should be. Get a clue dude...

Yes, vote amfa and get majority rule, no matter what, even if they are wrong and you get screwed out of a few years. Vote Teamsters and KEEP YOUR EARNED SENIORITY.

Date of Hire

 

[WNMECH]

Of course you would. We have already figured out your character and those of the others who support your view. It is never a fair and equitable deal when the number of employees between the two groups are so imbalanced. You SWA guys sold out the ATA mechanics. Simple as that. What you had on your side was numbers. That is it. Not fairness or equality, you all wanted to save your own hides and have five year employees stand above 20 year employees. Shameful.



Question: Why exactly were you all unwilling to simply go by date of hire?
Answer: Because you are all worried about the next round of lay offs! You know, the ones that normally happen following a merger. I simply can not believe you would be willing to "start over". if the situation was reversed.

This is exactly what theIBT representatives of the ATA mechanics were most concerned about. I do not believe the IBT was going against the majority at ATA. Sure they wanted the pay that went along with SWA, but what good does it do when you go out the door with 20 years of seniority and a 5 year employee gets to stay? If you have the faith in your union that you preach. then why was this an issue at all? With the powerful and mighty amfa at the helm, you should never have to worry about furloughs or station reductions right? BUT YOU WERE

You all doubt your unions ability to keep you employed, and will do anything to add a bit of cushion underneath you. Even if the person you sold out has many more years of experience than you. Inexcusably shameful.




Yes, vote amfa and get majority rule, no matter what, even if they are wrong and you get screwed out of a few years. Vote Teamsters and KEEP YOUR EARNED SENIORITY.

Date of Hire

You are so good at fact checking everyone, how about you fact check yourself.

Airtran had no 20 year mechanics.
Their highest seniority date was in 1994 and he is a GSE mechanic.

Swa guys only got a 4 year boost.

Want to talk about fair?
That same GSE mechanic only lost 4 years and enters our list in the top one third.
He also got a raise to $44 an hour from a reported low $20s. I don't have his exact old wage.

Question: How is a 5 year swa guy going to displace a 20 year AT guy when a 18 year AT guy is now above 13-14 year Swa guys?
Answer: He is not.

Why did the all mighty IBT not take it to arbitration and get DOH ?

Because it was not fair and equitable to BOTH side and they would have lost.

 

[WNMECH]

I heard a 20 year AA overhaul mechanic will not be able to exercise his seniority over a 5 year line mechanic if he can't pass an updated test designed to make him fail.

Is this how the TWU does it Anomaly?

And I suppose the IBT will stop this too?

Remember, VOTE TEAMSTERS AND KEEP YOUR EARNED SENIORITY, DATE OF HIRE.

Just like they got the Airtran guys huh.

 

[AC Tynker]

I heard a 20 year AA overhaul mechanic will not be able to exercise his seniority over a 5 year line mechanic if he can't pass an updated test designed to make him fail.

Is this how the TWU does it Anomaly?

And I suppose the IBT will stop this too?

Remember, VOTE TEAMSTERS AND KEEP YOUR EARNED SENIORITY, DATE OF HIRE.

Just like they got the Airtran guys huh.

It appears as though you are under the impression that Anomaly works for AA and is represented by the TWU. If that is truly the case I can understand where your confusion came from with all the Identity accusations that seem to follow every topic. Whatever the case may be he is actually a 27yr AMT from UAL previously represented by AMFA and currently represented by IBT. Not sure what the lure of all the identity accusations is. Maybe all that play the I know who you really are game here actually wants to give these International TWU officers and IBT Organizers that they accuse members here of being a piece of their minds but this is the only environment they have the intestinal fortitude to do it in or what. I guess it is what it is. Hope that helps.