AMFA/teamsters Senoirity Integration

[swamt]

The UAL and Cal mechanics are still without a merged senoirity list, even though they are both represented by the teamsters, and it's been more than 3 years. The teamsters have a policy, "in writing", and has failed to implement a combined senoirity list. It's not even 2 years after SWA closed on AT purchase yet and not only did AMFA get the mechanics list completed, but all the biggest groups are done, even the groups that went thru arbitration. Below is the method at which AMFA will apply during senoirity integration nego's. Does anyone know what the TWU has put out in writing what their method will be?

Dear Mechanic and Related Employees:​

AMFA's historic policy has been to favor dove-tailing of seniority lists based on the consideration of date-of-hire and referencing date-of-entry into the classification(s) with appropriate conditions and restrictions to prevent any improper windfall or adverse impact for either employee group. Conditions and restrictions are frequently used to avoid excessive dislocation of individuals from their current positions, which could give rise to undue hardship for the member and their family. In the case of AA and US we would favor "Date-in-Classification" since both groups use this seniority method.

During negotiations elected representatives from both American Airlines and US Airways will focus on the appropriate conditions and restrictions to be applied to achieve a successful integration of both groups. Your elected representatives would be advocating for your interests as we collectively resolve the merging of the two seniority lists. The McCaskill-Bond Amendment guarantees a "fair and equitable seniority integration of employee groups affected by the combination of two or more airlines."

AMFA recently represented the Southwest Airlines technician and related employees seniority integration with the former AirTran members who were represented by the Teamsters. AMFA negotiated the integration of the two seniority lists by a "dove-tail" by date-of-hire process with an additional four year increase to the date-of-hire for all AMFA- Southwest members while taking into account the considerations as mentioned above.

While it is anyone's guess how the TWU and the IAM would structure their committees and resolve the seniority integration methodology; it is certain, that in AMFA, any agreement reached on behalf of our members would be put to a vote of our members! In AMFA there are no secret Letters of Agreement and all Letters of Agreement must be voted on by the membership.
In AMFA, the individual voice is heard while the collective voice speaks.

Sincerely,

Louie Key
National Director​

 

[CIO]

So Amfa members negotiated to add 4 years to their seniority and then dovetail? So is this really fair?

TWU has already addressed this subject and will dovetail. The IAM and TWU classifications are different between AA and USAIR. This will be sorted out for proper implimentation.

No reason to twist this, It will take years to sort out. It doesn't matter who ultimately represents the combined carriers.

In Solidarity,
CIO

 

[700UW]

The IAM always uses dovetail by date of classification.

 

[swamt]

So Amfa members negotiated to add 4 years to their seniority and then dovetail? So is this really fair?

TWU has already addressed this subject and will dovetail. The IAM and TWU classifications are different between AA and USAIR. This will be sorted out for proper implimentation.

No reason to twist this, It will take years to sort out. It doesn't matter who ultimately represents the combined carriers.

In Solidarity,
CIO

Yes AMFA did. As well as every other group on the property, but one, and yes even groups that a have been to and thru arbitration with a third party over seeing and ruling also agreed to any and all the boost in seniority increases. Even the company agreed to all the groups increase in seniority. Even well over 85% of both AMFA and teamsters thought that this was fair and equitable. There is nothing out there that says you have to dovetail, unless it is in writing when the same union represents both groups being merged. If there are 2 different unions, or just one sided with union, then both groups must nego a fair and equitable agreement that both sides must agree on, and our nego committee as well as the AT nego committee has done just that, and had it done in well under half the time the teamsters are still taking to get a combined list for the UAL boys.

 

[AANOTOK]

So, am I missing something here? How is it fair to give AMFA represented Southwest employees four extra years to their seniority. What is wrong with taking AA 's seniority list and the US seniority list, but them side by side and start merging. If every US employee has more time, so be it. If every AA employee has more time, fine. Just use DOC and be done with it. Obviously it will put some hardship on a few, but you cannot please everyone. Am I being to simplistic here?

 

[robbedagain]

aanotok that sounds simply and i tend to agree with you on that not everyone would be happy but what you said does make sense

 

[swamt]

So, am I missing something here? How is it fair to give AMFA represented Southwest employees four extra years to their seniority. What is wrong with taking AA 's seniority list and the US seniority list, but them side by side and start merging. If every US employee has more time, so be it. If every AA employee has more time, fine. Just use DOC and be done with it. Obviously it will put some hardship on a few, but you cannot please everyone. Am I being to simplistic here?

Actually you have a very good idea that would work very well at AA/US merger. Things were a lot different here at SWA/AT merger. Long story short the AT mechs were getting an abundance of rather very large improvements coming into SWA. Huge pay increases (anywhere from 14k to 37k per year increase in pay), huge bennnies increases, more vac, hol, sick time, added F/H, trade sck time for early retirement ins for you and spouse, job security, growth expansion, added maint lines ect... It goes deeper but you get the point. With the AT employees gaining such a windfall in all areas, then it was determained that the SWA unions were deserving of a boost in seniority. It was the amount of years that were nego at the table for each group that had to nego an agreement. With AA and US so close together in pay, and I am not sure about their bennies separation, but it would be beneficial to both groups to use the better part of each others contracts to merge with.

 

[cltrat]

I believe I am correct in saying TWU at SWA fleet got 4 to 1 on the AT fleet if that were to be attempted with AA/US I can't even begin to describe the fall out.

 

[JAFI]

So, am I missing something here? How is it fair to give AMFA represented Southwest employees four extra years to their seniority. What is wrong with taking AA 's seniority list and the US seniority list, but them side by side and start merging. If every US employee has more time, so be it. If every AA employee has more time, fine. Just use DOC and be done with it. Obviously it will put some hardship on a few, but you cannot please everyone. Am I being to simplistic here?

I agree. Just go by classification/occupational DOH and be done with it. Anything else will be a mess. Just like the one we created with TWA. The date you rolled your box onto the hangar floor and started turning wrenches, thats your date.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

Take a look at this,

I have talked personally and work with some of the guys who came from (ATA) Air Trans Airlines, who were represented by (IBT) Teamsters prior to coming to SWA through the buyout of ATA by SWA.
During the negotiation integration of seniority process (in my opinion, most critical time to ones profession) for the AMTs from ATA and SWA, the Teamsters Local 528 in Atlanta (Union Leadership, who were truck drivers) left the ATA AMTs out to dry. The Teamsters "truck drivers union" tried every excuse not to represent the ATA Mechanics and related during the merger/buyout of ATA. (ATA AMT's were not a priority). After a near riot at the Teamsters Local 528 Union Hall, The ATA Mechanics wanted some action after weeks of missed appointments and no returning of phone calls from the Teamsters.
The ball got rolling to start negotiations, when a couple individual mechanics from the membership to start negotiations with AMFA, SWA, ATA and an outside attorney to start negotiations to resolve the seniority and integration process for ATA AMTs. The Mechanics & Related were by themselves at the start, midstream and towards the end of negotiations with SWA, ATA and AMFA. The final hour by a threat of lawsuit of "failure of no representation" did the Teamsters show up to listen, not to represent, but to listen and be present.
Here is proof of what the (IBT) Teamster puts it priority of importance in a representative of the Airline Division, let alone the Mechanics and Related in Teamsters organization. ( Look at Chart attached)
The rest of the story:
Atlanta Teamsters Local 528 , President Don Toney and his boys would not show up for meetings or answer calls.
Johnny Edwards was local 528 Teamsters business agent, who could never be reached, he never returned calls, was basically skipped town, know where to be found, voice mail was full and totally let the guys there fend for themselves against SWA, ATA and AMFA. It was stated by Local 528 President Don Toney "Teamsters did not want to spend money on such a small entity in the Teamster organization."
What else is ironic, SWA paid for ATA Mechanics independant Attorney and legal council so the ATA Mechanics had a fighting chance for themselves, and get the seniority integration process. ALL THOSE YEARS OF PAYING DUES AND THE ATA MECHANICS HAD TO GET INDEPENDENT LEGAL FIRM PAYED FOR BY SWA! Really? When the ATA Mechanics needed the "mighty Teamsters" the most, THE IBT DID NOT WANT TO TAKE THE RESPOSIBILITY TO REPRESENT AT THE TIME OF BUYOUT AND DURING SENORITY INTERGRATION, TO FIGHT FOR THEIR MEMBERSHIP. WOW! WHY?


This was sent to the AMFA Supporters here at AA from an (X) American employee who NOW works for SWA..

(name rmvd)

 

[swamt]

Take a look at this,

I have talked personally and work with some of the guys who came from (ATA) Air Trans Airlines, who were represented by (IBT) Teamsters prior to coming to SWA through the buyout of ATA by SWA.
During the negotiation integration of seniority process (in my opinion, most critical time to ones profession) for the AMTs from ATA and SWA, the Teamsters Local 528 in Atlanta (Union Leadership, who were truck drivers) left the ATA AMTs out to dry. The Teamsters "truck drivers union" tried every excuse not to represent the ATA Mechanics and related during the merger/buyout of ATA. (ATA AMT's were not a priority). After a near riot at the Teamsters Local 528 Union Hall, The ATA Mechanics wanted some action after weeks of missed appointments and no returning of phone calls from the Teamsters.
The ball got rolling to start negotiations, when a couple individual mechanics from the membership to start negotiations with AMFA, SWA, ATA and an outside attorney to start negotiations to resolve the seniority and integration process for ATA AMTs. The Mechanics & Related were by themselves at the start, midstream and towards the end of negotiations with SWA, ATA and AMFA. The final hour by a threat of lawsuit of "failure of no representation" did the Teamsters show up to listen, not to represent, but to listen and be present.
Here is proof of what the (IBT) Teamster puts it priority of importance in a representative of the Airline Division, let alone the Mechanics and Related in Teamsters organization. ( Look at Chart attached)
The rest of the story:
Atlanta Teamsters Local 528 , President Don Toney and his boys would not show up for meetings or answer calls.
Johnny Edwards was local 528 Teamsters business agent, who could never be reached, he never returned calls, was basically skipped town, know where to be found, voice mail was full and totally let the guys there fend for themselves against SWA, ATA and AMFA. It was stated by Local 528 President Don Toney "Teamsters did not want to spend money on such a small entity in the Teamster organization."
What else is ironic, SWA paid for ATA Mechanics independant Attorney and legal council so the ATA Mechanics had a fighting chance for themselves, and get the seniority integration process. ALL THOSE YEARS OF PAYING DUES AND THE ATA MECHANICS HAD TO GET INDEPENDENT LEGAL FIRM PAYED FOR BY SWA! Really? When the ATA Mechanics needed the "mighty Teamsters" the most, THE IBT DID NOT WANT TO TAKE THE RESPOSIBILITY TO REPRESENT AT THE TIME OF BUYOUT AND DURING SENORITY INTERGRATION, TO FIGHT FOR THEIR MEMBERSHIP. WOW! WHY?


This was sent to the AMFA Supporters here at AA from an (X) American employee who NOW works for SWA..

(name rmvd)

He's telling the truth. AMFA was constantly calling, e-mailing, faxing and even the old fashion snail mail and the teamsters completely ignored AMFA. They refused to return correspondence as well as refused to meet with AMFA or SWA. They were more worried about collecting cards from the SWA membership so they wouldn't have to go head to head with AMFA in nego's, as you all now have seen just how that went. A group of about 4-6 mechs from AT came to SWA for a meet and greet with the AMFA reps and a tour of the facilities (no nego's at this time). I have heard after the AT mechs returned back home they were yelled and screamed at by the teamsters for showing up at SWA and talking to the AMFA guys. Even after this meeting it still took a long time to get the teamsters to the table. Matter fact, with the way the teamsters were acting we had no idea what they were going to do, IF, they were going do anything at all, therefore the infamous March 31 LOA was born. One of the reasons behind the LOA was to light a fire under the teamsters a$$es to get them to the table. The teamsters also let it be known that they did not want to go to arbitration and spend all that money on the membership that they knew they were losing after the merger was complete. You see the teamsters wanted to do anything they could in order to hurt or "get back" at the AMFA/SWA guys for firing them in e record 2 week card drive. This is also the main reason the teamsters hate AMFA with such a passion, and the same goes with the IAM for what happened at NWA and UAL, and soon the TWU will hate AMFA just as much when they get fired from AA and AMFA moves in there.

 

[1AA]

Take a look at this,

I have talked personally and work with some of the guys who came from (ATA) Air Trans Airlines, who were represented by (IBT) Teamsters prior to coming to SWA through the buyout of ATA by SWA.
During the negotiation integration of seniority process (in my opinion, most critical time to ones profession) for the AMTs from ATA and SWA, the Teamsters Local 528 in Atlanta (Union Leadership, who were truck drivers) left the ATA AMTs out to dry. The Teamsters "truck drivers union" tried every excuse not to represent the ATA Mechanics and related during the merger/buyout of ATA. (ATA AMT's were not a priority). After a near riot at the Teamsters Local 528 Union Hall, The ATA Mechanics wanted some action after weeks of missed appointments and no returning of phone calls from the Teamsters.
The ball got rolling to start negotiations, when a couple individual mechanics from the membership to start negotiations with AMFA, SWA, ATA and an outside attorney to start negotiations to resolve the seniority and integration process for ATA AMTs. The Mechanics & Related were by themselves at the start, midstream and towards the end of negotiations with SWA, ATA and AMFA. The final hour by a threat of lawsuit of "failure of no representation" did the Teamsters show up to listen, not to represent, but to listen and be present.
Here is proof of what the (IBT) Teamster puts it priority of importance in a representative of the Airline Division, let alone the Mechanics and Related in Teamsters organization. ( Look at Chart attached)
The rest of the story:
Atlanta Teamsters Local 528 , President Don Toney and his boys would not show up for meetings or answer calls.
Johnny Edwards was local 528 Teamsters business agent, who could never be reached, he never returned calls, was basically skipped town, know where to be found, voice mail was full and totally let the guys there fend for themselves against SWA, ATA and AMFA. It was stated by Local 528 President Don Toney "Teamsters did not want to spend money on such a small entity in the Teamster organization."
What else is ironic, SWA paid for ATA Mechanics independant Attorney and legal council so the ATA Mechanics had a fighting chance for themselves, and get the seniority integration process. ALL THOSE YEARS OF PAYING DUES AND THE ATA MECHANICS HAD TO GET INDEPENDENT LEGAL FIRM PAYED FOR BY SWA! Really? When the ATA Mechanics needed the "mighty Teamsters" the most, THE IBT DID NOT WANT TO TAKE THE RESPOSIBILITY TO REPRESENT AT THE TIME OF BUYOUT AND DURING SENORITY INTERGRATION, TO FIGHT FOR THEIR MEMBERSHIP. WOW! WHY?


This was sent to the AMFA Supporters here at AA from an (X) American employee who NOW works for SWA..

(name rmvd)

No charts or links attached.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

So Amfa members negotiated to add 4 years to their seniority and then dovetail? So is this really fair?

TWU has already addressed this subject and will dovetail. The IAM and TWU classifications are different between AA and USAIR. This will be sorted out for proper implimentation.

No reason to twist this, It will take years to sort out. It doesn't matter who ultimately represents the combined carriers.

In Solidarity,
CIO

CIO

Key word in your statement ( negotiated ) unlike a lot of stuff here with the TWU.
Just look what we did to the TWA guys, 4/10/01 thats fair right?
Guys with 30yrs in the industry getting screwed. I will assume you have never worked any place other than Here.

many here at AA with the TWU will not like the fair way by intergrating by occupational/clasification seniority
which is fair. How each carrier does its intergration during merger depends on the membership and the union leadership.

Lets see how the IBT handles the CAL/UAL deal.

Lets see how we do with the USAir guys as well.

AMFA at AA in 2013​

 

[WNMECH]

So Amfa members negotiated to add 4 years to their seniority and then dovetail? So is this really fair?

Yes it was fair.

AirTran mechs received huge wage and benefit increases.
SWA mechs received a 4 year increase in seniority.

Both sides found it fair and both sides voted it in by about 85%.

Who made you the arbiter of what is fair to us?

 

[767 mechanic]

So Amfa members negotiated to add 4 years to their seniority and then dovetail? So is this really fair?

TWU has already addressed this subject and will dovetail. The IAM and TWU classifications are different between AA and USAIR. This will be sorted out for proper implimentation.

No reason to twist this, It will take years to sort out. It doesn't matter who ultimately represents the combined carriers.

In Solidarity,
CIO

How fair was it when the Reno air mechanics were stapled to the bottom? They didnt get a vote. AT mechanics were able vote and they agreed with it. Can you say that the Reno mechanics would have accepted what they receive?