ALPA PHL Council 41 Update

[AWA320]

Without the actions of the AWA MEC there would be an opportunity for an agreement; however, according to the PHL Reps. "the company is now anxious to clean up their 'labor balance sheet' in order to give them more flexibility in the M&A arena and it may provide some early opportunities for us."

As I indicated earlier this week and echoed by the PHL Reps. in their update above, the East pilots "could be looking at single contract separate operations, or separate agreements and separate operations. The East and the company will be exploring these possibilities."

Regards,

USA320Pilot

Now lets be fair now!! There was an opportunity for an agreement, it was called mediation remember that???It took place last october. Your MEC said DOH or bust so guess what?

There will be no deals ALPA will have to fish or cut bait!

Good luck with your decert effort we are behind you 100%

BoeingBoy,

It is my understnading the Company, ALPA International, and the East MEC are looking at a couple of options instead of "pay parity", which could achieve the MEC's objectives.

MEC sources indicate that the intent of this week's "EC Resolution and the Rice Committee is to now move the process of 'finding solutions' to this issue forward. And, if any party is unwilling to engage in this process, then we'll (ALPA International and the East MEC) move forward in negotiations 'without them'."

Apparently, "the JNC talks will go forward, but not in the 'traditional sense,' and may include many different variations that we have not yet even considered."

An option that would be more beneficial to the East pilots than pay parity would be two of the Rice Committee's recommendations of single contract & separate operations or separate agreements & separate operations. Furthermore, the PHL Reps. indicated the "East (MEC/NC) and the Company will be exploring these possibilities."

What's interesting is that these options are permitted by the Transition Agreement. And, according to the PHL Reps. "The company is now anxious to clean up their 'labor balance sheet' in order to give them more flexibility in the M&A arena and it may provide some early opportunities for us."

By the way...how is retirement and your inability to be a chameleon?

Best regards,

USA320Pilot

OMG,

Your sheep herders just feed you garbage and you eat without question.

Ok now here is something your herders didn't tell you. The company will not do seperate ops, seperat section 6 or pay parity it's as DOA as DOH

Now here's something else for you and the rest of the sheep to do. Go get a copy of the transition agreement and tell us what it says about negotiations, I bet you crap your pants after you read it!!!!!

Company and YOU have one way out negotiate a JOINT deal. Keep living is your dream world partner, you EastUS and Nos will get the clue sooner or later...

 

[EastUS]

Now lets be fair now!! There was an opportunity for an agreement, it was called mediation remember that???

Good luck with your decert effort we are behind you 100%

"There was an opportunity for an agreement,"

Ummm...there's not any such now? I must have missed your coronation ceremony You prefer virtual "warfare" between the two "sides" to even considering further negotiations?.

"Good luck with your decert effort"

Thanks...you've done your small personal part, however marginally substantive, and your mec's been perfect champions for the movement

PS: What's with your evidently newfound obsession with sheep?...Seen any provocative nature films lately?

 

[AWA320]

Oh you have no idea what I am really able to do!![/b]

PS: What's with your evidently newfound obsession with sheep?...Seen any provocative nature films lately?

No it's because sheep will blindly follow to their own demise!! Sound familuar??

 

[USA320Pilot]

AWA320,

AWA320 said: "Company and YOU have one way out negotiate a JOINT deal."

USA320Pilot comments: Nope, if fact today the BOS F/O Rep said, "(here is a )direct quotes from (ALPA EVP) Capt. Rice in quotation marks. The EC Resolution states that the merger process was followed, that ALPA remains neutral, and we need to work in the "real world" to find "realistic solutions."

"The intent of the EC Resolution and the Rice Committee is to now move the process of 'finding solutions' to this issue forward. And if any party is unwilling to engage in this process, then we'll move forward in negotiations 'without them,'" the BOS F/O Rep. said.

"The JNC talks will go forward, but not in the 'traditional sense,' and may include many different variations that we have not yet even considered," the BOS F/O Rep noted.

Furthermore, tonight's East MEC Code-aphone said, "(Captain Rice indicated) if one of the parties does not fully cooperate, the President in consultation with the Committee will move forward, seemingly with the other party and communicate with the pilots and the company."

Yesterday the PHL Reps. said, "The company is now anxious to clean up their “labor balance sheetâ€￾ in order to give them more flexibility in the M&A arena and it may provide some early opportunities for us. We could be looking at single contract separate operations, or separate agreements and separate operations. The East and the company will be exploring these possibilities."

Let me review a few points for you. According to the MEC update, BOS F/O update, and PHL Reps. update for yesterday and today, it appears that the Rice Committee's recommendations and the approach if the MEC and the Company are for either a single contract - separate operations or separate agreements - separate operations.

Either one is fine with the majority of the East pilots and will effectively set aside the Nicolau Award for as long as the agreement and amendable date NMB process lasts. Furthermore, there is nothing the West MEC and pilots can do about it because as Captain Rice indicated and today's code-a-phone reported "If one of the parties does not fully cooperate (like the West MEC who so far has not cooperated and abided by the EC's two resolutions), the President in consultation with the Committee will move forward, seemingly with the other party and communicate with the pilots and the company."

Or as the BOS F/O Rep. indicated, again, Captain Rice told the East MEC today if any party is unwilling to engage in this process, then we'll move forward in negotiations "without them.'"

In conclusion, with this week's developments, the EC's action, Captain Rice's briefing, and the new approach seemingly fostered by ALPA, the East MEC, and the Company, I believe the majority of the East pilots no longer care what the West MEC or their pilot group thinks.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[ableoneable]

AWA320,




Or as the BOS F/O Rep. indicated, again, Captain Rice told the East MEC today if any party is unwilling to engage in this process, then we'll move forward in negotiations "without them.'"



Regards,

USA320Pilot

Okay slow one, what the above means is that if the east MEC does not participate in JNC talks, those talks will be held without the east MEC. This threat was crafted to push the east MEC into participating in JNC talks.

JNC talks will not lead to separate agreements.

I can't wait for your spin the day you have to live under the list.

On another note, it should be interesting to see how Stephan spins it when ALPA nat'l has to pick up the tab to defend the lawsuit that the east filed against the west. (Assuming of course that this lawsuit is real. The west MEC has still not been served.)

 

[Junebug172]

ALPA PHL Council 41 Update for July 23, 2007

Our newly hired attorney was out of town and could not be reached early on in the morning at the start of things. He was later located by Kevin Barry of the Merger Committee

Ah, money well spent.

BoeingBoy,

It is my understnading the Company, ALPA International, and the East MEC are looking at a couple of options instead of "pay parity", which could achieve the MEC's objectives.

Best regards,

USA320Pilot

Don't you ever get tired of being wrong all the time?

Love the backtracking.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Ableoneable,

You're incorrect.

As it was explained to me today from the East Special MEC Meeting if any party does not comply with the EC's resolutions or does not work with the Rice Committee then ALPA International, the East MEC, and the Company are now prepared to negotiate a single contract and separate operations or a joint contract and separate operations.

According to yesterday's PHL Council 41 update the Reps. said, "The East and the company will be exploring these possibilities (single contract and separate operations or a joint contract and separate operations)."

What's wrong with separate operations? It preserves per-merger career expectations for both pilot groups, which I believe is fair.

I agree the Nicolau Award will not be set aside, it will just not ever be implemented.

According to the BOS F/O Rep. in an update today, here's a summary from the Open Session with Paul Rice, with direct quotes from (ALPA EVP) Capt. Rice in quotation marks:

1. The Nicolau Award will not be set aside by the Executive Council (EC) unless there's proof that the "merger process" wasn't correctly followed, and so far no proof has been presented.

2. However, there is no timetable as to when or if the EC will ever release the list to the Company.

3. The EC Resolution states that the merger process was followed, that ALPA remains neutral, and we need to work in the "real world" to find "realistic solutions."

4. The intent of the EC Resolution and the Rice Committee is to now move the process of "finding solutions" to this issue forward. And if any party is unwilling to engage in this process, then we'll move forward in negotiations "without them."

5. The JNC talks will go forward, but not in the "traditional sense," and may include many different variations that we have not yet even considered.

In conclusion, I believe the East and West pilot relationship, with the toxicity increasing daily and fueld by communications like this week's West MEC Chairman's letter, is so toxic the only suitable solution is either single contracts or joint contracts and separate operations, which the Company now seems to support and is permitted by the Transition Agreement.

Also noteworthy, I do not begrudge any pilot or any airline employee from obtaining a better contract and I hope the West pilots can obtain one too.

Best regards,

USA320Pilot

P.S. Another free day without having to read 700UW's posts!

 

[Junebug172]

When are you going to stop listening to your reps.

They promised you DOH, and what do you get?

They promised the Nicolau award would be vacated, and now you admit that it won't.

They promised you pay parity, and now you admit it won't happen?

Do you not see a pattern yet?

 

[USA320Pilot]

Junebug,

Nope!

There are many different options available to the East MEC and if one does not work then they will try another option to vacate the effects of the Nicolau Award and improve pilot pay and benefits.

There are very few pilots who do not support the MEC's action(s) and I know of only two pilots who object. Why? They're in the top 500 of the seniority list and they want to be based in PHX.

In regard to your three questions I would like to make two points. The MEC never promised any of your points and the rank-and-file overwhelmingly supports each of the points you listed.

Finally, after today's presentation to the MEC by ALPA EVP Captain Paul Rice I believe the vast majority of the East pilots support the EC's action.

Would the rank-and-file pilots have liked the EC to throw out the Nicolau Award? Absolutely, but I believe the majority of the rank-and-file would approve a new contract that had either a separate contract & separate operations or a joint contract & spearate operations.

At least the good news is the Company and the negotiators will discuss these two options, which is the only way the vast majority of the West pilots will obtain a pay raise unless the West MEC goes into Section 6 negotiations, which is o.k. with the East pilots.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[ableoneable]

Ableoneable,

You're incorrect.

As it was explained to me today from the East Special MEC Meeting

B) (IF I were you I would start reading these resulotions yourself and forming your own opinions instead of constantly having to have things "explained to you." This is why your predictions have been so consistant, and by consistant I would mean wrong.) B)

if any party does not comply with the EC's resolutions or does not work with the Rice Committee then ALPA International, the East MEC, and the Company are now prepared to negotiate a single contract and separate operations or a joint contract and separate operations.

According to yesterday's PHL Council 41 update the Reps. said, "The East and the company will be exploring these possibilities (single contract and separate operations or a joint contract and separate operations)."

What's wrong with separate operations? It preserves per-merger career expectations for both pilot groups, which I believe is fair.

I agree the Nicolau Award will not be set aside, it will just not ever be implemented.

According to the BOS F/O Rep. in an update today, here's a summary from the Open Session with Paul Rice, with direct quotes from (ALPA EVP) Capt. Rice in quotation marks:

1. The Nicolau Award will not be set aside by the Executive Council (EC) unless there's proof that the "merger process" wasn't correctly followed, and so far no proof has been presented.



2. However, there is no timetable as to when or if the EC will ever release the list to the Company.

3. The EC Resolution states that the merger process was followed, that ALPA remains neutral, and we need to work in the "real world" to find "realistic solutions."

4. The intent of the EC Resolution and the Rice Committee is to now move the process of "finding solutions" to this issue forward. And if any party is unwilling to engage in this process, then we'll move forward in negotiations "without them."

5. The JNC talks will go forward, but not in the "traditional sense," and may include many different variations that we have not yet even considered.

In conclusion, I believe the East and West pilot relationship, with the toxicity increasing daily and fueld by communications like this week's West MEC Chairman's letter, is so toxic the only suitable solution is either single contracts or joint contracts and separate operations, which the Company now seems to support and is permitted by the Transition Agreement.

Also noteworthy, I do not begrudge any pilot or any airline employee from obtaining a better contract and I hope the West pilots can obtain one too.

Best regards,

USA320Pilot

P.S. Another free day without having to read 700UW's posts!

Your reps are just spinning you. Which side has been reluctant to engage in JNC talks? Why do you think the threat of moving forward without one party was raised?

The west has been willing to negotiate all along. If you paid close attention you would note that they have indicated their willingness to discuss solutions that would mollify the east's concerns about future career expectations. (think fences and growth ratio formulas)

They are simply unwilling to engage in those discussions if the Nic list is the only topic of discussion. That is to say the west is not going to renogotiate the list, it is a permanent fact of life.

In order for fences to be discussed as an element of any future contract the east is going to have to accept the list as a part of the backround reality.

If you carefully read the resulotion (read it yourself instead of having one of your excellent sources "explain" it to you.) you will see that ALPA nat'l is telling the east that they can either participate in JNC talks, and possibly gain some additional protections, or not, but the process will move forward with or without them. (It is akin to where the east was about a year ago. They could have negotiated with the west and very probably had VERY high fences as part of a negotiated settlement but instead said DOH or we take our ball and go home. That option is again open. Negotiate or stand on the sidelines and let national sign a contract for you.)

ALPA has spoken. The only way to avoid this is by activly participating in the negotiations. If east takes its ball and wants to go home national will negotiate in its stead. (recievership.)

It is not in the company's interest to sign a new contract that saddles them with the cost of two operations. Unless, in the final anlysis, we the pilots are willing to pay for the priveledge of separate operations.

 

[prechilill]

Okay slow one, what the above means is that if the east MEC does not participate in JNC talks, those talks will be held without the east MEC. This threat was crafted to push the east MEC into participating in JNC talks.

JNC talks will not lead to separate agreements.

I can't wait for your spin the day you have to live under the list.

On another note, it should be interesting to see how Stephan spins it when ALPA nat'l has to pick up the tab to defend the lawsuit that the east filed against the west. (Assuming of course that this lawsuit is real. The west MEC has still not been served.)

Hypothetical scenario: The east JNC will not participate in joint talks, the AWA JNC negotiators reach a deal with the company. The T/A goes to a vote and the east overwhelmingly rejects it. Parker, together with ALPA, declare an impasse and a mediator is appointed. Six months later there is a contract. Sound unreasonable?

 

[ussnark]

When are you going to stop listening to your reps.

They promised you DOH, and what do you get?

They (your vague reference to ?) absolutely did not promise anyone on the East, DOH. Any stated goal of DOH was always accompanied with the phrase, conditions and restrictions and a comment that no one was ever expected to lose anything over this.

If you are going to lie, at least try to post a reference.

They promised the Nicolau award would be vacated, and now you admit that it won't.

No. They realize that if the "award" is not vacated than there are other opinions to neuter it. No, dear. You will not be able to cash your whining lottery ticket.

They promised you pay parity, and now you admit it won't happen?

No, they did not promise anyone pay parity. They did allude to pay based on ones seniority, something you do, which would pay the East a lot more than you presently make. Making the same as you would be a travesty.

Do you not see a pattern yet?

You are ignorant? Mentally challenged? You have literacy challenges? All checked.

 

[CV580ETOPS]

I don't "blame" you. I thank you guys most sincerely for the help in getting any/all fence sitters to fully endorse dumping Alpo

"You kill me..." Tempting as the idea might be, just for sport...Ummm: Sorry..you'll have to keep on living your peculiar little life :down:

HEY RICHARD/MODERATOR



How come you bust my chops about calling USAir people idiots and morons and this guy threatens bodily harm and gets a free pass? Maybe because he's a USAir goon like you?

 

[oldcrow]

While at the oldfarts breakfast roundtable this morning there was mention of the PHL & PIT reps denying(by roll call) the east's retirement & insurance chairman positive space travel to Tempe for a group labor meeting on the problems with UHC.

Whats the reason for denying ALPA positive space travel for the R&I Chairman to travel to PHX. Seems like a meeting on the problems with UHC is an important issue.

 

[ussnark]

HEY RICHARD/MODERATOR
How come you bust my chops about calling USAir people idiots and morons and this guy threatens bodily harm and gets a free pass? Maybe because he's a USAir goon like you?

Exactly how does "You kill me..." Tempting as the idea might be, just for sport...Ummm: Sorry..you'll have to keep on living your peculiar little life" rise to the level of threatening bodily harm.

I mean, other than condemning you to live your tightly circumscribed lousy excuse for a life.