EyeInTheSky
Veteran
hp_fa,
THANK YOU!!! That's what I asked in an earlier post.
THANK YOU!!! That's what I asked in an earlier post.
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Alpa Code A Phone 9/6 #2
- Thread starter USAirBoyA330
- Start date
ClueByFour
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,566
- 37
USA320Pilot said:
Proffer a recall motion and see how that goes (or find a PIT and PHL based pilot to do it).
Wait, that's been done.
Dilligas
Veteran
For over 50 years labor unions have negotiated contracts at US Airways and it's predecessors, Mohawk, Allegheny, Piedmont, and PSA.
Negotiations are high stress times of high emotion. Fear is rampant, emotions run high, and nerves are frayed, to say the least. Even good people lose their perspective when threatened with economic hardship and loss. Any unionized employee still left on the payroll at U has riden this rollercoaster more times than they would care to.
What disappoints me currently is the lack of intellectual honesty and courage shown by those that want to bend over and take whatever piece of garbage the company throws on the table.
The working conditions, wages, benefits, vacation, etc that you currently enjoy were not given to you by the benevolent company. They were negotiated for you by various teams of negotiators over the years, each time striving to advance, or hold on to what they had, depending upon economic conditions. Being on a negotiating team, or holding a position as a union rep, is no picnic. You get it from all sides, from those too lazy to get involved, from those that find fault with every thing, and there is a huge "bullseye" on your back.
At times, it took drawing a line in the sand, being willing to stand up and stare without blinking. At times it took withdrawing your services, and suffering the abuse, economic pain, and suffering that went with that.
The nonunion employees at U received many, though not all, of the gains won by the unionized employees. However, the nonunion groups also saw their wages and benefits cut and slashed without recourse, without negotiation.
How any halfway intelligent person could believe that the current regime at U has any honor, any decency, any integrity, or any sense of teamwork, is beyond me. Please name anything that has been done that conveys integrity, a spirit of team building, proactive planning, or good faith with labor.
Time after time after time, contractual procedures have been ignored, grievances piled up and were not resolved. There is no good faith effort on behalf of the company to make this sucker fly.
There is no leadership at the helm. There are only opportunists which seek to reap the benefits from slashing your pay and benefits, sending your wages back to the 1970's, and brutally taking from the many retirees, who have no voice.
We have all witnessed the members of management come on these very boards and attempt to manipulate and divide. They also have their lackeys that spout what they are told to push, who seek personal gain from being a message boy for the regime.
You in organized labor should know better by now.
There simply aren't any junior people left. All of you have years of seniority and experience. The most junior people in the company are in CCY and are the ones stealing your standard of living, and eroding your future, and decimating your retirement. And many of you are taking it meekly, as one step at a time, your career is destroyed. You should be mad as hell.
Quit crying about your negotiators. Quit attacking the other workgroups and denigrating the work of your coworkers. Quit trying to aid the company in circumventing the negotiating process. You are playing into the hands of master con men. Take a step back and look at what has transpired at U over the last ten years. They have shown no good faith.
When the company fails, and it will fail, it will not be the responsibility of any labor group. Labor has answered the call time and again, and seen its contribution squandered and wasted. You've been blatantly lied to time after time.
For the members of ALPA that have shown the courage to stand and fight for their members, for the valiant efforts of those that fight to hold on to maintaining some sense of justice on the job and dignity in the workplace, I salute you.
This too shall pass, and the memories and pain will fade. The legacy of this regime of bumblers will be firmly etched in aviation history and no amount of spin will change the truth.
Negotiations are high stress times of high emotion. Fear is rampant, emotions run high, and nerves are frayed, to say the least. Even good people lose their perspective when threatened with economic hardship and loss. Any unionized employee still left on the payroll at U has riden this rollercoaster more times than they would care to.
What disappoints me currently is the lack of intellectual honesty and courage shown by those that want to bend over and take whatever piece of garbage the company throws on the table.
The working conditions, wages, benefits, vacation, etc that you currently enjoy were not given to you by the benevolent company. They were negotiated for you by various teams of negotiators over the years, each time striving to advance, or hold on to what they had, depending upon economic conditions. Being on a negotiating team, or holding a position as a union rep, is no picnic. You get it from all sides, from those too lazy to get involved, from those that find fault with every thing, and there is a huge "bullseye" on your back.
At times, it took drawing a line in the sand, being willing to stand up and stare without blinking. At times it took withdrawing your services, and suffering the abuse, economic pain, and suffering that went with that.
The nonunion employees at U received many, though not all, of the gains won by the unionized employees. However, the nonunion groups also saw their wages and benefits cut and slashed without recourse, without negotiation.
How any halfway intelligent person could believe that the current regime at U has any honor, any decency, any integrity, or any sense of teamwork, is beyond me. Please name anything that has been done that conveys integrity, a spirit of team building, proactive planning, or good faith with labor.
Time after time after time, contractual procedures have been ignored, grievances piled up and were not resolved. There is no good faith effort on behalf of the company to make this sucker fly.
There is no leadership at the helm. There are only opportunists which seek to reap the benefits from slashing your pay and benefits, sending your wages back to the 1970's, and brutally taking from the many retirees, who have no voice.
We have all witnessed the members of management come on these very boards and attempt to manipulate and divide. They also have their lackeys that spout what they are told to push, who seek personal gain from being a message boy for the regime.
You in organized labor should know better by now.
There simply aren't any junior people left. All of you have years of seniority and experience. The most junior people in the company are in CCY and are the ones stealing your standard of living, and eroding your future, and decimating your retirement. And many of you are taking it meekly, as one step at a time, your career is destroyed. You should be mad as hell.
Quit crying about your negotiators. Quit attacking the other workgroups and denigrating the work of your coworkers. Quit trying to aid the company in circumventing the negotiating process. You are playing into the hands of master con men. Take a step back and look at what has transpired at U over the last ten years. They have shown no good faith.
When the company fails, and it will fail, it will not be the responsibility of any labor group. Labor has answered the call time and again, and seen its contribution squandered and wasted. You've been blatantly lied to time after time.
For the members of ALPA that have shown the courage to stand and fight for their members, for the valiant efforts of those that fight to hold on to maintaining some sense of justice on the job and dignity in the workplace, I salute you.
This too shall pass, and the memories and pain will fade. The legacy of this regime of bumblers will be firmly etched in aviation history and no amount of spin will change the truth.
PITbull
Veteran
- Dec 29, 2002
- 7,784
- 456
USFlyer said:
If the company goes through with their threat of filing a motion to aborgate, rest assured, the rank and file will never be productive enough going forward to turn a profit for any damn stake hlder.
Everyone loses. I know senior management must be wise enough to know this...then again...
Dill:
This is alright and fine but the union is nothing more the members that make it up and not the few leaders who some believe have all seeing power putting them on some imagined mystical plane.
There is less than 15% of the entire American work force unionized today and why is that? Who the hell knows but what I do know is most people including the membership of the remaining unions have zero back bone and why I was saying on another thread that unions are almost unless today simply because they don't have the memberships backing, there is no grit or spirit to fight the tough battle. This is everywhere you look too. It’s like our parents raised a bunch pansies. Everyone is scared to death of the man who signs the check. It’s simply pathetic nowadays what employers get away simply because people let them, this is fact making the unions as weak as pond water. What’s the cure? I have no idea.
This is alright and fine but the union is nothing more the members that make it up and not the few leaders who some believe have all seeing power putting them on some imagined mystical plane.
There is less than 15% of the entire American work force unionized today and why is that? Who the hell knows but what I do know is most people including the membership of the remaining unions have zero back bone and why I was saying on another thread that unions are almost unless today simply because they don't have the memberships backing, there is no grit or spirit to fight the tough battle. This is everywhere you look too. It’s like our parents raised a bunch pansies. Everyone is scared to death of the man who signs the check. It’s simply pathetic nowadays what employers get away simply because people let them, this is fact making the unions as weak as pond water. What’s the cure? I have no idea.
NewHampshire Black Bears
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 10,154
- 681
cavalier said:
===============================================
cav,
Plz allow me to bring you back to the west coast dockworkers(longshoreman's) strike, about 1+1/2 years ago.
The Union said "strike".
"NOT ONE" person, fron SAN to SEA, "even entertained" the "thought" of crossing the picket line.
Vessels that were "lucky" enough to already have a berth(pier), sat, some with perishable cargo, ROTTING in their holds !!! The reason they did,nt cast off their lines, and "get out of dodge", is because the line handlers union, WOULD'nt untie them. If the crew cast off their lines, there were NO tugs, or harbor pilots, to lead them to "open water" !!!!!!!!
I'm sure you catch my drift.
While I'll admit that unions like these, are far and few between, the THEORY is still plain and simple.------------SOLIDARITY "WORKS"-- "P E R I O D " !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NH/BB's
I actually worked on the docks in a major NE city, in an earlier time. It was a "learning experience, I'l NEVER forget, EVER. An experience that for better or worse, was PRICELESS !!!!
BoeingBoy
Veteran
- Nov 9, 2003
- 16,512
- 5,865
- Banned
- #102
What apparently everyone that says "we should have a vote" forgets (or never learned) is that the negotiation process is there for a very good and time tested reason. And it's the same reason that ALPA has (for at least my 25 years) cautioned against letting management negotiate directly with the individual pilots. I presume the other unions have a similiar stance.
What it boils down to is this - the job of each side is to get the best deal for their side. The union wants the best deal possible for its members, and management wants the best deal for the company. Obviously, these two desires are at odds - the so-called "adverserial relationship".
By attempting to put a company proposal out for a membership vote (even by calling it an "agreement" when no agreement exists), the MEC is unilaterally dropping the one weapon it holds (and making both itself and the NC superfluous) - the ability to say "This isn't good enough" - and going against decades of ALPA advice by letting management negotiate directly with the individual pilots.
So what's the harm, I hear you ask? Simple, no rocket science required. By going directly to the rank and file, management does not have to offer the minimum they need. Management only has to offer enough to get 50% +1 affirmative votes. There is no incentive for management to bargain in good faith. There is no incentive for management to offer the least that is acceptable to them. In fact, the incentive is seek the largest concessions possible.
And since management controls or influences nearly all the tools that create the "atmosphere" of the process - intracompany media, outside media thru selective interviews, analysts comments by stratigic announcements, etc - they can control the mindset of a significant portion of the rank and file. As we have seen played out on this board, fear can be a powerful motivator.
So for those who are so unabashedly castigating those who "denied the pilots a vote", just understand what you are saying. You're saying that you are in favor of giving the biggest concession that will pass by 1 vote. You're saying that you are willing to give up what little power the union has to negotiate in your behalf. You're basically saying that you not only are willing, but want to depend on management's largesse for your pay and working conditions.
Jim
What it boils down to is this - the job of each side is to get the best deal for their side. The union wants the best deal possible for its members, and management wants the best deal for the company. Obviously, these two desires are at odds - the so-called "adverserial relationship".
By attempting to put a company proposal out for a membership vote (even by calling it an "agreement" when no agreement exists), the MEC is unilaterally dropping the one weapon it holds (and making both itself and the NC superfluous) - the ability to say "This isn't good enough" - and going against decades of ALPA advice by letting management negotiate directly with the individual pilots.
So what's the harm, I hear you ask? Simple, no rocket science required. By going directly to the rank and file, management does not have to offer the minimum they need. Management only has to offer enough to get 50% +1 affirmative votes. There is no incentive for management to bargain in good faith. There is no incentive for management to offer the least that is acceptable to them. In fact, the incentive is seek the largest concessions possible.
And since management controls or influences nearly all the tools that create the "atmosphere" of the process - intracompany media, outside media thru selective interviews, analysts comments by stratigic announcements, etc - they can control the mindset of a significant portion of the rank and file. As we have seen played out on this board, fear can be a powerful motivator.
So for those who are so unabashedly castigating those who "denied the pilots a vote", just understand what you are saying. You're saying that you are in favor of giving the biggest concession that will pass by 1 vote. You're saying that you are willing to give up what little power the union has to negotiate in your behalf. You're basically saying that you not only are willing, but want to depend on management's largesse for your pay and working conditions.
Jim
767jetz
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,286
- 2,779
Jim,
Very well put! This is exactly what I have tried to say. Negotiating directly with the employees goes against everything labor stands for... strength in numbers. It encourages the company to go for the biggest land grab that will pass by 51%, rather than negotiating in good faith the minimum concessions/maximum employee benefit that is acceptable. It would set a bad precident for the rest of the industry.
Stay strong! Our thoughts are with you.
Very well put! This is exactly what I have tried to say. Negotiating directly with the employees goes against everything labor stands for... strength in numbers. It encourages the company to go for the biggest land grab that will pass by 51%, rather than negotiating in good faith the minimum concessions/maximum employee benefit that is acceptable. It would set a bad precident for the rest of the industry.
Stay strong! Our thoughts are with you.
nycbusdriver
Veteran
I think the PHL and PIT reps wanted to give USA320Pilot a birthday present when they stood firm on Sept. 6th.
I wonder what he wished for when he blew out the candles
I wonder what he wished for when he blew out the candles
