USA320Pilot
Veteran
- May 18, 2003
- 8,175
- 1,539
Alpa Code-a-phone 8/30/04 #2
- Thread starter USA320Pilot
- Start date
USA320Pilot , In your opinion how much longer does the MEC have to get out a T/A ? 24-48 hours ? By Friday ? AFA/CWA are waiting , IAM even though they claim their conncession stand is closed is watching, and they havent even talked to the Dispatchers yet. It doesnt seem like enough time left before Sept 30th to get everyone on board.
OldGuyinPA
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 700
- 8
That............is the point. The company never intended to get agreements.
mwereplanes
Senior
- Jan 21, 2004
- 302
- 0
Isn't that amazing pacemaker. Had the 4 listened to the 8 and sent the ORIGINAL last, best offer from the company out for a vote even that crumb would not have been on the table.
PORTION DELTED. And give some more.
tic toc.........................tic toc.......................tic toc....................
mr
PORTION DELTED. And give some more.
tic toc.........................tic toc.......................tic toc....................
mr
mwereplanes
Senior
- Jan 21, 2004
- 302
- 0
Pacemaker said:
My point was that it was not in the first last best offer. Yes, it was in the second last best offer. Wonder what will be in the third?
mr
EyeInTheSky
Veteran
Seems those eight Nancy Boys will have to change the following:
"And please remember we have 1879 oops we'll change that to 2,629 pilots on furlough.
Thank you for listening."
What a neat bunch, aye?
"And please remember we have 1879 oops we'll change that to 2,629 pilots on furlough.
Thank you for listening."
What a neat bunch, aye?
28yrsnojob
Senior
- Jan 2, 2004
- 411
- 4
:down: there looking for 30% ,they should give more to protect the salariesof the cwa and iam and also management.
BoeingBoy
Veteran
- Nov 9, 2003
- 16,512
- 5,865
- Banned
- #11
Well, I've been out flying for 4 days (or more accurately 3-1/2, since this was one of those trips that had 3 long days then only 1 leg the last day) and have spent the last few hours catching up. You can really tell it's getting crunch time around here.
So, some various thoughts and this seemed as good a place as any to put them.....
A pet peeve of mine has become the phrase "an LCC type contract". Seems like it's codespeak for "pick the worst of what's out there and that's what we've got to agree to". From catching up on my reading today, the new catchphrase seems to be "America West type contract", which seems to translate to "no better than and in most instances worse than America West's contract". I guess most people with more intelligence than your average rock caught on to the fallacy in "LCC type contract" so something new was in order.
Defamation of certain LEC reps who don't follow the "company line" - meaning the thinking of Pollock, the "give away" 7/8, and their surrogates - is reaching an all-time high. Supported, of course, by a portion of an e-mail with no context and certainly no indication of what this e-mail was responding to. Never mind that my LEC rep (CLT capt rep) hasn't even bothered to answer an e-mail I've sent him yet. Never mind that the other CLT rep (f/o) calls those who don't see things his way "the lunatic fringe" and "delusional". Of course, they follow the "company line" so anything they do or say is by definition perfectly acceptable.
Further defamation of some by hinting that they're "offering" concessions that won't affect themselves, conveniently forgetting (or deliberately omitting) the fact that these "offers" first surfaced in company proposals, not ALPA proposals. And of course, the last concessions resulted in the A330 pilots taking the biggest percentage hit (after those who were forced back to lower paying positions. But of course none of the "moderate" reps were flying the A330, were they.
The old "still $80-100 million short of the company ask" ploy. Of course, never mind that the company "ask" is far in excess of the $295 million they claim to want from the pilots - my guess is by more than that "$80-100 million" figure.
[Something of an amusing aside here. I talk to people who see what DAL wants from their pilots - $1 billion - and it makes their eyes spin. But add up what has been given by the pilots here - over $500 million in concession 1 & 2, over $300 million in pension, and now another $295 million. For the 4000 or so pilots on the "working" seniority list pre-BK1 (about 5400 or so total), that represents significantly more than is being asked of the roughly 7000 DAL pilots.]
I noticed that the "ALPA EIS" folks have stopped supporting the ALPA forum or something to that effect. I must have missed the memo. There was something a month or so ago about LEC rep updates, code-a-phone messages, and things like that being posted under a heading on the main page instead of on the 2 separate boards. But at least one of the "web board guys" just was posting on the ALPA forum this weekend. Maybe he didn't get the memo either...
The company offer...
From my perspective, it appears the company wants lower pay than AWA with no better than B6 work rules. By and large, if you're not working you're not being paid. Oh, you will get some vacation each year (in my case, a little over 1/2 of what I get now) and some sick time (only about 2 weeks worth at most). So don't break a leg and be out for 2 months - 1-1/2 of that will be without pay. Well, that's not quite right - you go on something called MED which hasn't been explained. And definitely don't get anything that will result in loss of your medical for over 2 years.
Finally, the "1113 letter" we just have to have, making any agreement better than no agreement. Of course, the letter is void if concessions are not gotten from the other labor groups by 60 days after filing BK or 1/31/05, whichever is first. So the company is setting the stage for coming back for more in the near future.
I'm sure I'll have more, but that's enough for now. In closing, I'll just say that there is only one reason to vote "No" for anything that remotely resembles the company proposal. There'll be no place to vote "Hell No", so "No" is the closest any of us can get.
Jim
So, some various thoughts and this seemed as good a place as any to put them.....
A pet peeve of mine has become the phrase "an LCC type contract". Seems like it's codespeak for "pick the worst of what's out there and that's what we've got to agree to". From catching up on my reading today, the new catchphrase seems to be "America West type contract", which seems to translate to "no better than and in most instances worse than America West's contract". I guess most people with more intelligence than your average rock caught on to the fallacy in "LCC type contract" so something new was in order.
Defamation of certain LEC reps who don't follow the "company line" - meaning the thinking of Pollock, the "give away" 7/8, and their surrogates - is reaching an all-time high. Supported, of course, by a portion of an e-mail with no context and certainly no indication of what this e-mail was responding to. Never mind that my LEC rep (CLT capt rep) hasn't even bothered to answer an e-mail I've sent him yet. Never mind that the other CLT rep (f/o) calls those who don't see things his way "the lunatic fringe" and "delusional". Of course, they follow the "company line" so anything they do or say is by definition perfectly acceptable.
Further defamation of some by hinting that they're "offering" concessions that won't affect themselves, conveniently forgetting (or deliberately omitting) the fact that these "offers" first surfaced in company proposals, not ALPA proposals. And of course, the last concessions resulted in the A330 pilots taking the biggest percentage hit (after those who were forced back to lower paying positions. But of course none of the "moderate" reps were flying the A330, were they.
The old "still $80-100 million short of the company ask" ploy. Of course, never mind that the company "ask" is far in excess of the $295 million they claim to want from the pilots - my guess is by more than that "$80-100 million" figure.
[Something of an amusing aside here. I talk to people who see what DAL wants from their pilots - $1 billion - and it makes their eyes spin. But add up what has been given by the pilots here - over $500 million in concession 1 & 2, over $300 million in pension, and now another $295 million. For the 4000 or so pilots on the "working" seniority list pre-BK1 (about 5400 or so total), that represents significantly more than is being asked of the roughly 7000 DAL pilots.]
I noticed that the "ALPA EIS" folks have stopped supporting the ALPA forum or something to that effect. I must have missed the memo. There was something a month or so ago about LEC rep updates, code-a-phone messages, and things like that being posted under a heading on the main page instead of on the 2 separate boards. But at least one of the "web board guys" just was posting on the ALPA forum this weekend. Maybe he didn't get the memo either...
The company offer...
From my perspective, it appears the company wants lower pay than AWA with no better than B6 work rules. By and large, if you're not working you're not being paid. Oh, you will get some vacation each year (in my case, a little over 1/2 of what I get now) and some sick time (only about 2 weeks worth at most). So don't break a leg and be out for 2 months - 1-1/2 of that will be without pay. Well, that's not quite right - you go on something called MED which hasn't been explained. And definitely don't get anything that will result in loss of your medical for over 2 years.
Finally, the "1113 letter" we just have to have, making any agreement better than no agreement. Of course, the letter is void if concessions are not gotten from the other labor groups by 60 days after filing BK or 1/31/05, whichever is first. So the company is setting the stage for coming back for more in the near future.
I'm sure I'll have more, but that's enough for now. In closing, I'll just say that there is only one reason to vote "No" for anything that remotely resembles the company proposal. There'll be no place to vote "Hell No", so "No" is the closest any of us can get.
Jim
EyeInTheSky
Veteran
Jim, very well spoken, very well. You pretty much back up what I've heard from other CLT based pilots in that each one is totally against what their reps are backing up. Its a mess and I am afraid it's setting ALPA up for a terrible fall.
Hmmm, well...
To me, IMO it seems like the company is looking to obtain "above and beyond" from the labor groups that are seriously negotiating to make up for the major labor group that feels it is "above" such necessity.
Not quite right, is it? Whatever does end up being worked out, it is my fervent hope that said labor group find itself with no future returns, and continued downward pressure from here on out so as to extract a more equal distribution of the sacrifice the pilots are now asked to make in their place...
To me, IMO it seems like the company is looking to obtain "above and beyond" from the labor groups that are seriously negotiating to make up for the major labor group that feels it is "above" such necessity.
Not quite right, is it? Whatever does end up being worked out, it is my fervent hope that said labor group find itself with no future returns, and continued downward pressure from here on out so as to extract a more equal distribution of the sacrifice the pilots are now asked to make in their place...
