Allowing Bk Carriers To Destroy The Industry

[Busdrvr]

How about you play Nicholson? :huh:

[post="256549"][/post]​

You contend that Airline travel (specifically leisure) demand is elastic in all ranges. That's nonsensical. Saying that the price elasticity of demand for leisure travel is elastic is by definition saying that an X percent decrease in fares would result in a LARGER increase in demand, thus raising revenue. you statement that that is true for ALL ticket price ranges would imply that it is your belief that if fares were $2.00 for a transcon flight, lowering the price to $1.00 would double demand. not plausible. You may think we are not yet in a region of elastic demand, but to contend there is none is ludicrous.

 

[JS]

I've glossed through this topic which has gone through many topics but I'll contribute a few cents worth of my insights:

1. I haven't seen anyone suggest (unless I missed it) that the reason NW is all of the sudden getting righteous about taking fare increases is because NW employees have been VERY vocal about their employer being unwilling to take increases while asking for concessions. Perhaps NW recognizes they have to ask for deeper concessions and it's time to start admitting that increases actually do generate some increased revenue. Interesting also that NW is interested in fare increases even though the threat of LCC growth across its network has grown through the ATA/WN marketing agreement.

Labor concessions and ticket pricing are two different things.

2. CO/DL/NW are REQUIRED by the Feds as part of their codeshare agreement to maintain identical fares on markets where the codeshare exists. There is no competition between CO/DL/NW on flights operated by one for another of the two airlines.

False

 

[Flufdriver]

Usually I don't get involved on "another" carriers thread but after reading the topic of this thread I couldn't resist. I sometimes have a hard time believeing when I read how some employees of "other" carriers would love to see the rest of us fail, putting thousdands of employees out of work turning their lives along with their family upside down. Other carrier's emplyees (North by Northwest and FWAA) that would make such statements are a true self-centered disgrace. I'm sure if it were "their" carrier the story would be different. DON'T blame the BK carriers for ruining the industry...Before 911 and the quick growth of LCC's we all made money with the fares and said cost stucture. I really think you should balme the vast expansion of LCC's that drown the system with a fare structure that NONE of us can make money. We, like all legacy carriers...yes including NW and AA are reacting to this deep spiral. The two of you making such a statement simplyshows the greed and self-centered thinking that some other carriers employees think!! But what do you expect...FWAA has been hoping for the worst for U for a long time now....Unlike you FWAA and North by Northwest, I hope we ALL make it through this mess!!!!

 

[Red Tail Bear]

Usually I don't get involved on "another" carriers thread but after reading the topic of this thread I couldn't resist. I sometimes have a hard time believeing when I read how some employees of "other" carriers would love to see the rest of us fail, putting thousdands of employees out of work turning their lives along with their family upside down. Other carrier's emplyees (North by Northwest and FWAA) that would make such statements are a true self-centered disgrace. I'm sure if it were "their" carrier the story would be different. DON'T blame the BK carriers for ruining the industry...Before 911 and the quick growth of LCC's we all made money with the fares and said cost stucture. I really think you should balme the vast expansion of LCC's that drown the system with a fare structure that NONE of us can make money. We, like all legacy carriers...yes including NW and AA are reacting to this deep spiral. The two of you making such a statement simplyshows the greed and self-centered thinking that some other carriers employees think!! But what do you expect...FWAA has been hoping for the worst for U for a long time now....Unlike you FWAA and North by Northwest, I hope we ALL make it through this mess!!!!

[post="257322"][/post]​

I dont believe that other carriers employees wish failure upon another.The failures have already occured by way of mismanagement,LCC expansion,high fuel costs,and other factors that affect a carriers growth,survival,etc. I do believe however that in this industry only the strong survive.We do not blame BK carriers for ruining the industry, but we do have a problem with carriers who continue to operate under BK protection and refuse to do what is necessary to emerge. And if that means selling assets, downsizing,etc so be it.This industry cannot continue this downward spiral, because if it does we all will be in the same boat. Now if this is what you desire to happen to the remaining carriers not in BK, then that is the ultimate greedy, self centered thinking that you speak of. :down: :down: :down:

 

[Flufdriver]

Like we haven't give and done what we need to do....34% paycut 8% aycut, 18% paycut, no pension, 1900 furloughs, reduced health benefits, revamped the schedule....your right we haven't done anything.....wait, your in round one!!!!

You'll soon see how your "Brothers" there at DAL will do...I hope you wish your codeshare buds the best to~~~~~I know you'll be pulling for them!

 

[North by Northwest]

Usually I don't get involved on "another" carriers thread but after reading the topic of this thread I couldn't resist. I sometimes have a hard time believeing when I read how some employees of "other" carriers would love to see the rest of us fail, putting thousdands of employees out of work turning their lives along with their family upside down. Other carrier's emplyees (North by Northwest and FWAA) that would make such statements are a true self-centered disgrace. I'm sure if it were "their" carrier the story would be different. DON'T blame the BK carriers for ruining the industry...Before 911 and the quick growth of LCC's we all made money with the fares and said cost stucture. I really think you should balme the vast expansion of LCC's that drown the system with a fare structure that NONE of us can make money. We, like all legacy carriers...yes including NW and AA are reacting to this deep spiral. The two of you making such a statement simplyshows the greed and self-centered thinking that some other carriers employees think!! But what do you expect...FWAA has been hoping for the worst for U for a long time now....Unlike you FWAA and North by Northwest, I hope we ALL make it through this mess!!!!

[post="257322"][/post]​

"when I read how some employees of "other" carriers would love to see the rest of us fail, putting thousdands of employees out of work turning their lives along with their family upside down. Other carrier's emplyees (North by Northwest and FWAA) that would make such statements are a true self-centered disgrace Why would we "love" to see you fail when you are already BK? I suspect your self centered view reflects the un importance of our families whom now face BK wages to stay competitive, nor our furloughed employees (unemployed) unable to return to work because of BK carriers. Naw...our lives have not be affected by the failure of your company and it's continued negative operational impact on the entire industry. I think you had better re-visit the definition of disgrace.DON'T blame the BK carriers for ruining the industry Are you serious? Do you actually believe having TWO major carriers in Bk does not have a MAJOR impact on the industry as a whole? Before 911 and the quick growth of LCC's we all made money with the fares and said cost stucture. I really think you should balme the vast expansion of LCC's that drown the system with a fare structure that NONE of us can make money.Ual/ U initiated a fare sale when the entire industry attepted to raise fares Both Ual/ U had serious cost structure issues well before 9/11. U should have never viewed itself as an airline that maintained the same pay (me too clausees) structure as major international carriers. U should have emulated the operational structure of SW...period. It would have been hugely successful. Ual had it's own devils to deal with as did NWA and AMR...we just dealt with them differently. The fact remains that having two major American carriers in BK places enormous cost pressures on the remaining solvent carriers. That is the law of economics. The length of time these two carriers have been allowed to operate in BK has place the solvency of every major carrier at stake. We should be so lucky to be able to shed our debts outside of BK during this time of high fuel costs. Don't talk to me about "if the shoe was on the other foot". Tell that to Pan Am'ers, Braniff, Eastern folks (well over 110,000 employees). At least their retirees didn't get completly screwed as in the intention of Ual/ U. It appears that the current staff at Ual/ U will vote to screw over all the people that built those companies and passed it on to you...in order to serve their own "greed and self-centered thinking "

 

[Flufdriver]

I hope and know, because I have a few friend that work for NW that all employees there DON'T have your pathetic view...talk about self centered...you better look into the mirror pal. You represent NW very well...pathetic!!!! I do beleive your blaming the wrong carriers...we wouldn't be in BK and you would NOT have taken a paycut if it weren't for the LCC's. I know I'm getting WAY over your head here!!

Anyway, I normally don't wish someone of your pathetic thinking luck...but unlike you...if you declared BK, I know what your going through and would wish you and your fellow workers luck along with your families...that's called being professional!!! Something you don't display...Northwest should be very proud to have an employee like yourself!!! You do bring out the WORST in NORTHWORST!!

It would be a long trip with you pal!!

 

[Flufdriver]

Good luck to all of you at NW...well maybe except one!!

 

[North by Northwest]

"I hope and know, because I have a few friend that work for NW that all employees there DON'T have your pathetic view...talk about self centered...you better look into the mirror pal. You represent NW very well...pathetic!!!! I do beleive your blaming the wrong carriers...we wouldn't be in BK and you would NOT have taken a paycut if it weren't for the LCC's. I know I'm getting WAY over your head here!!" First off, I'm not your pal, sparky. Moreover, you somehow think that I should be happy because a carrier that has always operated above it's means should be allowed to continue depressing the wages and working conditions of the industry?
In my world, my family comes first. In my world my company comes first. I think you had better exaimine U business model and then figure out why you have entered BK twice in 2 years. The only thing that is over my head in your post is the level of pure ignorance in believing that all of your problems stem from LCCs. Anyway, I normally don't wish someone of your pathetic thinking luck...but unlike you...if you declared BK, I know what your going through and would wish you and your fellow workers luck along with your families(no you wouldn't if and when it started to affect your income and family)...that's called being professional!!! Something you don't display...Northwest should be very proud to have an employee like yourself!!! You do bring out the WORST in NORTHWORST!!

Luck had nothing to do with where NWA is today sparky. Northwest has a history of financial prudence that established the longest profit history in the industry...period. That did not happen by trying to always have the "newest" of whatever every other carrier had. That is also called experienced professionalism. When the exsistence of two BK carriers starts to affect the welfare of my family and company, guess which side of the line I'll be standing on. It is demonstrative of your level of intellect to expect us to join the group hug, and destroy our own company and wages because of failed businesses. One round in BK along with a finite amount of time in BK should be the last stop before joining the great airframes in the Mojave. I don't believe in joinning misery when we have sacrificed to get where we are while others lived the high life. I feel for all present and fromer employees whom have lost...but I feel mine and Northwest's first. Now you smoke that up your "Northworst" pipe. Boy that's a clever one. Must've been a real brain drain for you, "Fluffy".

 

[Flufdriver]

Big difference pal, and NO I'm not your "Sparky". Your system isn't covering the East coast where we have stiff cometeion from LCC carriers. You system is basicall in "no man's land" Minni and Motown...not really under attack from LCC's for obvious reasons. I'd love to see your fare stucture get under attack from LCC like on the EAST coast...even you codshare partners are bleeding on the EAST coast...DAL with their "Simlifares, think that has anything to do with poor yield, or am I getting in way to deep. I did give you some benefit but I can see you don't see even the small pic. NW has basically NO overlap with LCC so you can keep your yields higher. DAH!! I new you would like Northworst...

Always great to chat with such NICE people in the industry....only kidding you know.

Can't wait to read your next posting....Like I said...it would be a LONG trip with you "Pal"!! That's why we have an "AVOID" function when you bid for the month. We also have a few like you here....

Have a great day..!!

 

[North by Northwest]

Fluffy, your conversation is way over my head. I'll finish my doctorate then try to catch up . Whew...you must be an analyst or some'n. You sure no's a thing or two about them population centers. What's it like 'n those big cities like North Carolina? Heck, we only travel to small ones like Detroit, Tokyo or Mumbai. Do you have to lock ya doors there? Have a nice day, back atcha! "Always great to chat with such NICE people in the industry....only kidding you know. " Stop getting flirty, or I'll report you. :unsure:

 

[Bigsky]

Who's this guy?

You system is basicall in "no man's land" Minni and Motown

Detroit and Minneapolis are "no mans land?" I'll grant you that there are no ocean views but both are very large metropolitan cities. Last I checked Detroit was the 5th largest and Minneapolis the 13th. Ever hear of the "big three" auto makers? I'll help you out....Ford, Daimler Chrysler and General Motors. Well they all happened to be based in your "no mans land." Next time you move to a new country try studying up on it's demographics a bit. Cheers Bigsky

 

[Flufdriver]

Aren't we getting a little testy there Northy~~~man, feel like I'm back in high school, "You be good or I'm going to report you, what will I have to do, stay after class?? LOL! I forgot they built cars there, haven't had an American car for years...the good 'ol quality just isn't there! I prefer the German built my self~~

It has been a pleasure....

Looks like things are going great there by the way...a little piece from a recent article...

ST. PAUL, Minn. (AP) -- Northwest Airlines Corp. mechanics on Friday accused the carrier of risking safety by hiring outside contractors for some maintenance work, days after Northwest warned it might lay off as many as 930 mechanics this year.


Like most carriers, Northwest is struggling with soaring fuel prices. On Wednesday it said it will reduce its fleet by 30 planes this year, parking mostly DC-9s and closing a heavy maintenance line in the Twin Cities that services the older planes.


It said it would cut 130 mechanic jobs by May, and up to 930 by the end of the year. Union officials said Northwest has already reduced its Twin Cities mechanics ranks from 5,300 in early 2001 to about 3,150 now.

 

[Kev3188]

Now you're resorting to making light of 900+ people being laid off? WTF?

 

[North by Northwest]

However bad it is here...we aren't broke and begging. We may need summer help if you're interested. "haven't had an American car for years...the good 'ol quality just isn't there! I prefer the German built my self~~" I am sure many American travelers feel the same about your company.

Bullet holes in the aircraft is a safety issue you should be spending time on vs. NWA's issues. :down: