Allowing Bk Carriers To Destroy The Industry

[Bigsky]

What I find difficult to believe is how the UA labor employees continually defend UA management when the only plan UA management has had for getting your airline out this mess is slashing your wages. Among the legacies, UA is by far the lowest paid with absolutely the most pathetic work rules in the industry. Defend that? Never!!!

Oooops. I almost forgot UA plan did have another plan that didn't involve slashing wages. It was the "Pets Earning Frequent Flier Miles Program". How brilliant!!! Go get 'em United!!!!!

 

[Busdrvr]

What I find difficult to believe is how the UA labor employees continually defend UA management when the only plan UA management has had for getting your airline out this mess is slashing your wages. Among the legacies, UA is by far the lowest paid with absolutely the most pathetic work rules in the industry. Defend that? Never!!!

Oooops. I almost forgot UA plan did have another plan that didn't involve slashing wages. It was the "Pets Earning Frequent Flier Miles Program". How brilliant!!! Go get 'em United!!!!!

[post="260071"][/post]​

While I'm not big on labor pain, I must acknowledge that it will take quite some time to make up the "lead' NWA's Unions gave them via significantly lower pay and benefits than UAL's for most of the last decade. How many mechanics does NWA employ per jet? Who's leading that profession down the tubes? In any case, I welcome you to do a little research. Find the average salary for various pilot positions at NWA and UAL. Let us know who actually led the profession lower. None of the NXNW BS, give us some hard numbers to work with. If nothing else, why don't you guys stand up for once and hold the line?

 

[Bigsky]

Bus
I am not saying that NWA has had industry leading contracts throughout their history. That contract that the UAL pilots signed around 2000 was a beauty and lead the other pilot groups like American and Delta. NWA still had another year before their contract was up for negotiation but would have most likely ended up with something very similiar.

Then all hell broke loose and UA was unable to adapt quickly.

I certainly place no blame on UAL labor due to the fact the BK filing enabled UA management to do almost anything they wanted regarding cutting labor costs. And they did. UA management's business plan has been primarily to give the employees the shaft and from the numbers below you can see that they did quite well.

Here are current pay scales for a common type of aircraft, the B757, all flown by AA, DL, US, UA and NW.

Captain First Officer
NW 187/hr 127/hr
DL 181/hr 123/hr
AA 164/hr 111/hr
UA 149/hr 101/hr
US 144/hr 98/hr

 

[North by Northwest]

Dear Globe. Busydrv. You want some facts. Ok, is one for ya. Ual BANKRUPT for going on 3 years. U BANKRUPT twice in three years. Even if NWA went into bankruptcy tomorrow it still paid it bills and met it financial obligations longer than either of them. THAT is the PRIMARY FACT of the whole thread. I suggest both of you spend some time figuring out what the primary function of a solvent company is about. When a company is BANKRUPT it has failed as a ongoing business concern. Furthermore, pompousness is in the eye of the beholder...esp. one that braggs about bankruptcy. How bout a few more " facts" for both of you. What do you call a company that failed to pay vendors for goods and services? Theft of services perhaps? I have quite a few more "facts" for both of you if you need them. Greed and the pompous mentality that over whelmed it upon reciept of PAN AM routes is what sped Ual to it's demise. The absurd notion that Ual/ U will somehow be better off than it's non-bankrupt competitors. The "fact" that NWA did not join Ual/ U in bankruptcy to date is a testament to it's operational skill...not luck. That is a FACT! Many times in the past, corporate Ual, AND many of it's employees sprouted their peacock feathers at NWA's operational decisions. Well...look who's in the cat bird seat now. The FACT is we pay our bills...UAL/U can't. Is that FACT enough for you?

 

[Busdrvr]

What do you call a company that failed to pay vendors for goods and services?

I'd probably call call them NWA for reniging on deals with Airbus and Boeing in the mid 90's

Theft of services perhaps?

I'd call them NWA for failing to live up to the agreement with Minny.

The "fact" that NWA did not join Ual/ U in bankruptcy to date is a testament to it's operational skill...not luck.

It's a testiment to the sub UAL payrates you enjoyed for a vast majority of the last 15 years. It's a testiment to the outsourcing of MX functions at NWA (in violation of it's pact with Minny) to the lowest bidder while UAL used U.S. union labor.

Many times in the past, corporate Ual, AND many of it's employees sprouted their peacock feathers at NWA's operational decisions.

Ahh, so what this is about is your envy. you always looked at UAL, it's modern equipment, it's better domiciles, it's better payrates, and you wished you were there. Now, years later, because of TIMING, UAL went into BK. UAL had the highest payrates. Pure and simple. AMR for example had a cost advantage equal to half a BILLION a year due to pilot pay differances alone. Had Sep 11 happend 2 years earlier, NWA would not exist, much less be in BK. That's the facts. You can "gloat" on the fact that your company is going deeper in debt daily, funding the pension at it's minimum, but in truth, NWA is a dead man walking. The sooner you realize that the better off you'll be.

 

[jbguppy]

North by Northwest,
let me boil it down for you, only the basics.

1. Your company, Northwest, has done more to depress industry revenue over the last few years than any other airline.

2. Your company, Northwest, was the single biggest anti-UAL lobby on ATSB and pension bankruptcy issues.

3. Your company, Northwest, now has seen that it's primary business plan to have UAL go out of business is not going to work.

4. Now facing your own second round of pay and benefit cuts, you want to talk about the good of the industry.

5. Your sudden switch from cutthroat competition to "lets do what is best for the industry and have UAL go away" is not a switch at all, it is the same old "its all about my paycheck."

At the end of the day, a lot of us at UAL have gone through a lot of pain over the last few years partly due to your company's actions, Where were you when all this bad stuff for the industry was being done?

I am smiling thinking about the old adage, "what comes around goes around..."

Your corporate geniuses in Mini have never really been forced to deal with any low cost competition. You have always enjoyed very little competition in MSP and DET. Now your company is coming after you. Who do you expect to feel sorry for you??

While you were out on your porch having a lemonade, we were diggin a wagon out of the mud in the rain.

Better get your raincoat and shovel....


JBGuppy

PS - decades providing the best service, You must be kidding, right?!!

 

[Bear96]

Ouch.

 

[UAL_TECH]

North by Northwest,
let me boil it down for you, only the basics.

1. Your company, Northwest, has done more to depress industry revenue over the last few years than any other airline.

2. Your company, Northwest, was the single biggest anti-UAL lobby on ATSB and pension bankruptcy issues.

3. Your company, Northwest, now has seen that it's primary business plan to have UAL go out of business is not going to work.

4. Now facing your own second round of pay and benefit cuts, you want to talk about the good of the industry.

5. Your sudden switch from cutthroat competition to "lets do what is best for the industry and have UAL go away" is not a switch at all, it is the same old "its all about my paycheck."

At the end of the day, a lot of us at UAL have gone through a lot of pain over the last few years partly due to your company's actions, Where were you when all this bad stuff for the industry was being done?

I am smiling thinking about the old adage, "what comes around goes around..."

Your corporate geniuses in Mini have never really been forced to deal with any low cost competition. You have always enjoyed very little competition in MSP and DET. Now your company is coming after you. Who do you expect to feel sorry for you??

While you were out on your porch having a lemonade, we were diggin a wagon out of the mud in the rain.

Better get your raincoat and shovel....
JBGuppy

PS - decades providing the best service, You must be kidding, right?!!

[post="260195"][/post]​

I love it when you pilots 'talk' tough..... :wub:

B) UT

 

[North by Northwest]

Allow me to "break" it down for all of you facing the REPO of your shiny jets (get that "dip" yet for the C checks?) that you CAN'T pay for. Let me "boil" it down for all of you that can' t even pay for the roof over UAL headquarters (NWA owns it's spread AND 1.3 acres in downtown Tokyo, sorry forgot to throw in the 33 acres at NARITA), nor the greedy pig like behavior that percipatated the downfall of ual when the pilots wanted to screw the company and every other Ual employee. I understand that the state of Indiana is still looking for the money ($200 million) owed it for the state financing of the HUGE HANGAR at IND. Timing uh? Timing for BAD management and the pathetic business decisions to screw every vendor that has ever done business with UAl. Boeing, Airbus, every city that Ual has a hub in (can't afford to pay rent). Envy Ual...now that is and has been a joke for a very long time. United was a big domestic hillbilly airline before 1985 (too bad for PAA for selling the Pacific) KNOWN for living on the bottom for service for decades. As stated before on here, the LEVEL of denial has ALWAYS been difficult for those to come to terms with when they see reality differate from the rest of the world. Timing bad for NWA, AMR, Cal, DAL, SW? They aren't in BANKRUPTCY. They haven't BEEN STEALING from vendors and leasors for 3 years and STILL LOSING money. They haven't been flying around in jets that they DON'T own or can't AFORD looking over their shoulder for them to be ropo'd (yet bragging about them as IF THEY own them) (snicker). The timing was BAD for UAL because they operated WAY above their means. Just keep thinking you were envied ...if it helps the pain, cause the joke is on Ual. You (Ual employees) hope and pray that the other carriers join you in BANKRUPTCY. I suggest that you spend that time on praying that you are haven't been liquadated before the rest of us reach bankruptcy. Grasshopper:What do you call a company that failed to pay vendors for goods and services?

I'd probably call call them NWA for reniging on deals with Airbus and Boeing in the mid 90'sOh how you wish that were true uh grasshopper. Let me "boil" it down for you like this, NWA is buying new airplanes from Airbus. NWA CAN buy new airplanes from Airbus and Boeing because it CAN. Can Ual? Shrinking that hocked fleet alittle late? Theft of services perhaps?

I'd call them NWA for failing to live up to the agreement with Minny.

Another fantasy...NWA has not defaulted on ANY business obligations. Has Ual? (snicker) NEWSFLASH: Ual dumbly run, begging for "changing" dip financing because it CAN'T meet the agreed upon terms, on life support, pretending it was run better than it's competitors. At the end of the day, you can whine about when or what NWA did. We are solvent and UAL is NOT. We have NOT been in Bankruptcy (let alone for THREE YEARS), still unable to make a profit (even with airtran payrates). So you see, the joke is on you. How on Gods green earth do you go bankrupt with access to TWO of the highest renvenue division on EARTH (Pacific, AND London Heathrow)? Bad TIMING I guess. I wonder how NWA and AMR managed with only one? You can take the hillbilly out of the country but you can't take the hillbilly and give him a blank check in the city. If Ual is LUCKY it will be reduced to a domestic airline again...IF it is lucky. But then again...if it doesn't pay it's bills owed to SFO (read SFO ain't having it. SFO wants it's MONEY...NOW!), JFK, LAX, DEN, O'Hare it may not be able to do that even that. I hate being envious.

 

[North by Northwest]

Jp :At the end of the day, a lot of us at UAL have gone through a lot of pain over the last few years partly due to your company's actions, Where were you when all this bad stuff for the industry was being done?

I am smiling thinking about the old adage, "what comes around goes around..."
It's like a drunk...it's ALWAYS someone else's fault when they get into trouble. You just keep smiling (with tears running down your face). Smuggness becomes your denial of reality. Don't hate us because we're smart. We love how Ual is run. I just hope they keep it up. Won't be long now (with oil heading North). Gosh, I envy that operation, always so WELL run. " I read where Ual is buying some new 787's for expan-extincition" PS - decades providing the best service, You must be kidding, right?!! Wanna a reminder from the DOT as to where Ual was ranked in ON-TIME for the decade of the 90's? Northwest was #1 just in case you were kidding, right!! Ual humor is alittle detacthed from reality. Ual SEC 10K: As of December 31, 2004, approximately 13,000 proofs of claim totaling $57 billion (what was that about your pay rates, airplanes? )remain filed with the Bankruptcy Court. The remaining amount of the proofs of claim filed continues to far exceed our estimate of ultimate liability. Differences in amount between claims filed by creditors and liabilities shown in our records continue to be investigated and resolved in connection with our claims resolution process. While we have made significant progress to date, we expect this process to continue for some time and believe that further resolution of claims will enable us to determine with more precision the likely range of creditor distributions under a proposed plan of reorganization. (that's Ual speak for BS talk:translation:We owe far more than we will EVER be able to repay, we can ONLY hope that most of it will be fforgiven. We have no idea how long we will be able to BS the creditors. Remain fathful and pray....ALOT.More importantly:The terms of the DIP Financing also contain financial covenants that do not permit us to make payments inconsistent with our business plan (how convenient, THEFT of goods and services by any other standard) unless the lenders otherwise consent based on approval of a modified business plan. To preserve the Company's liquidity, our business plan (eat your heart out NWA, so envious) does not provide for contributions to our defined benefit pension plans. You gotta really LOVE THIS ONE AVOLAR(the lemon). On March 22, 2002, we announced the orderly shutdown of our wholly owned subsidiary Avolar, which was formed in early 2001 to operate and sell fractional ownership interests in premium business aircraft. In connection with Avolar's closing, we recorded a special charge of $82 million in the first quarter 2002 which included aircraft deposits and termination fees ($55 million), operating-related expenses ($18 million), severance-related costs ($7 million) and other costs ($2 million). This charge was classified as other operating expense. Gosh, wish NWA could be so bright.
During 2003, we filed four complaints for declaratory judgment and corresponding motions for temporary restraining orders concerning United's municipal bond obligations for facilities at DEN, JFK, SFO, and LAX. In each case, we sought clarification of our obligations to pay principal and interest under the applicable municipal bonds, and the protection of our rights concerning related airport lease agreements at the applicable airports.

On March 30, 2004, the Bankruptcy Court granted our motions for summary judgment with respect to the JFK, SFO and LAX municipal bonds, holding that our payment obligations related to municipal bonds financing airport improvements at these sites are not obligations arising under "leases" pursuant to Section 365 of the Bankruptcy Code. Based on this ruling, the outstanding $248 million in principal in connection with these municipal bonds is considered pre-petition debt and the applicable accrued rent has been classified as liabilities subject to compromise. Called THEFT of services in the rest of the world.
In our adversary proceeding involving DEN, however, the Bankruptcy Court did not grant our motion for summary judgment. Rather, the Bankruptcy Court found that our payment obligations for the municipal bonds financing airport improvements at DEN (which represents approximately $261 million in principal) are obligations arising under a true lease. (How could MINN be so nice to NWA, damn it!)We have appealed the adverse ruling of the DEN proceeding, but in accordance with the Bankruptcy Court's order, we paid $36 million into escrow for the April 2003, October 2003, April 2004 and October 2004 interest payments due for the DEN municipal bonds.

The defendants in the JFK, SFO and LAX adversary proceedings also appealed the Bankruptcy Court's ruling in the District Court. In November 2004, the District Court reversed the Bankruptcy Court's ruling and held in favor of the defendants in the SFO adversary proceeding. In January 2005, the District Court affirmed the Bankruptcy Court's ruling with respect to the DEN adversary proceeding and reversed the Bankruptcy Court's ruling with respect to the LAX adversary proceeding. On February 18, 2005, the District Court affirmed the Bankruptcy Court's ruling in the Company's favor in the JFK adversary proceeding.

The Company has appealed the District Court's ruling with respect to the SFO, LAX and DEN adversary proceedings to the United States Court of Appeals, Seventh Circuit. We expect that the defendants will appeal the ruling in the Company's favor in the JFK matter. The outcome of these matters is uncertain and, therefore, the ultimate treatment of these municipal bond obligations in reorganization is uncertain.

Similarly, in September 2003, we filed a complaint for declaratory judgment for all seven municipal bond issues (which represents approximately $601 million in principal) relating to our facilities at Chicago O'Hare International Airport ("O'Hare"), seeking, among other things, a declaration that a certain cross-default provision in the O'Hare airport lease is unenforceable. On February 15, 2005, the Bankruptcy Court approved an agreement resolving the disputes between the parties to this proceeding that in effect reduces the Company's indebtedness related to these bond issues from approximately $601 million to $150 million. The City of Chicago, a party to these adversary proceedings, is not a party to the O'Hare Settlement Agreement.

The O'Hare Settlement Agreement requires the indenture trustees and certain designated bondholders to waive any existing defaults with respect to the bonds, and not to seek any further payment on account of the bonds beyond the consideration set forth in the O'Hare Settlement Agreement. It requires the Company, in connection with the confirmation of its plan of reorganization, to relinquish any claims to certain unused construction fund monies (which currently total approximately $65 million) and to issue convertible debt to the counterparties in the O'Hare Settlement Agreement, upon emergence from bankruptcy of the reorganized UAL Corporation, having a par value of $150 million.

In connection with the financing of certain aircraft accounted for as capital leases, United had on deposit at December 31, 2004 an aggregate 385 million euro ($525 million) and $15 million in certain banks and had pledged an irrevocable security interest in such deposits to certain of the aircraft lessors. These deposits will be used to pay off an equivalent amount of recorded capital lease obligations. Oops, sounds like, what was that Busdrv you called NWA's 3 aircraft canx? Must be nice to be envied by your OUT of BANKRUPTCY, STILL PAYING their bills, Buying new aircraft (NWA can)at great finance rates competitors. How are things in fantasy land?

 

[North by Northwest]

Stay tuned for the big Ual Bankruptcy "Exit"...to be continued, again, and again, and again.

 

[North by Northwest]

"But United never expected to be in bankruptcy this long, according to the creditors, and thus they argue that Air Wisconsin should not be allowed to keep the money" Busdrv "Ahh, so what this is about is your envy. you always looked at UAL, it's modern equipment (you mean someone else's don't you), it's better domiciles (what the hell is a domicile? Sounds like prison), it's better payrates (the ones that kick dropped you into BANKRUPTCY?), and you wished you were there (envy will turn you bitter my friend...I have told you that over and over again). Now, years later, because of TIMING hey Sherlock, guess what...it was bad timming for Pan Am (Ual would still be doing "international from JFK-LAX" had Pan Am not experienced "TIMING"), UAL went into BK. UAL had the highest payrates ( didn't your parents teach you it never pays to be greedy). $90 million if its contract is rejected". Ual paid rates it couldn't afford, it thought it could buy plans it couldn't afford. Basically, it operated with money it didn't have.

 

[Globetrotter11]

North by Northwest,

Are you and mrfish3726 the same person??

 

[North by Northwest]

Globetrotter11 " "Other than making disparaging remarks about him, would you care to comment on the substance of what he writes?

The troubling thing is he usually has the facts[/color] (sure he does...and Ual will show a profit when it exits Bankruptcy in May 2025) on his side, it seems.

Naw, just someone whom likes to provide Globetrotter and the other Ual cheerleaders with the FACTS.... vs. Fantasy. Are you and Mr. Tilton the same person? Dear Globetrotter, take a little of your own advice "I think you just made my point.... and you did in fact take my advice by moving on. Part of moving on is to stop looking back.

Wishing you much success,

North By Northwest

 

[Bear96]

I think we are witnessing a meltdown right before our very eyes.

NxNW, get help! It's just a job!