Aircraft maint issues

[bigjets]

I would have thought the AFL CIO would have really put every effort to make association a success. It really feels like all it did by creating the association is to maintain dues coming in. This really is a missed opportunity. Just think getting AA the best contract at the largest airline would be a springboard to organizing UAL SWA ALASKA ETC ETC,,,,,,,

It comes across as disinterested with the membership, it's not like we voted for the association, this could have been a golden time for the AFL CIO, especially with a republican congress who wants to pass a federal right to work law.

 

[Real tired]

Can you answer my question weasel ? (dam spell check will not let me call you WeAAsel)

Has it changed that all title groups must vote in their own version of the TA, but the contract
is not signed until all groups pass theirs ? (TWU)

Back to my original question, do both unions need to pass with positive votes? Or do you take
the total votes from both unions?

It took years of fighting by the Title1 group to have separate (Title Specific) TA's, I would hate
to have lost that, but worse (for TWU members) is a contract that would pass by a small amount of total votes and the IAM voted 100% & TWU members voting the TA down but it still passes.

The info maybe available, but I have not seen it.

Good question, and I don't know how this will play out as we have no Title groups or Title specific TA's.

We're all one big happy family over here, remember? Including Stores, Utility and Auto. Although this time might be interesting as Stores has been removed from our class and craft, and I thought they now were separated from our contract and had to negotiate their own.

Not much talk about that around here as many don't know, or even care. We'll see.

But, I have to agree with swamt, I think it'll probably be 50+1% of the combined group, including all of LAA's "Title" groups.

 

[Real tired]

Finally something to unite line and overhaul.

Here is what due dilegence and how long it has been around. This definitely falls under that category.This is an "Association", not a merger.

"the first such diligence as a reasonable person under the same circumstances would use : use of reasonable but not necessarily exhaustive efforts —called also reasonable diligence Editor's note: Due diligence is used most often in connection with the performance of a professional or fiduciary duty, or with regard to proceeding with a court action. Due care is used more often in connection with general tort actions."

The best thing to do, is to find someone who is a lawyer. There has to someone in your group that knows someone that has a law license, and is qualified. Use an independent counsel to draw up a set questions and have Lombardo, Rosen, Petersen, and other top level TWU International Officers/IAM officials put answers to the questions and put their John Hancock to it Do not allow, a 10th level employee to sign and answer it.

Make sure at least 80 percent of your work group signs on to the questions you want answered.

This is where the Pilots have an advantage, they have a little level higher representation they we have, including many pilots, being lawyers including one of their Presidents during the bankruptcy.

A little anecdote, when United went bankrupt, and the pilots lost their pensions, they had no one to sue, they owned the airline. You guys will, including the Twu and Iam, Rosen Lombardo, and all the other officials if this is done right.Or the ones who signed off on this. As of now, the way its done, I don't believe you guy's will have recourse.

On the fleet side, there's maybe one percent who understand the contract, let alone their retirement, and even care.

The questions are easy: Who has done the due diligence on this, and has Lombardo/Rosen signed off on this. Who is the outside independent financial advisor that did the audit of the Pension fund? Why is it considered suitable to us? How come we don't get a choice to join or not join? Many more questions, a lawyer will come up with too.

You ask too many good questions, man.

Stay around. I have a feeling the LAA types around here are going to need a guy like you soon.

When I feel like typing a little more, I might give you some real numbers, then you can figure for yourself the rate of return that you were questioning some time back.

 

[NYer]

I am not interested in anything AA or anyone else can take away. I've had enough of the rug being pulled out from underneath me. Problem is fleet has lots of people who are in love with the IAMNPF and I'm sure they won't go alone. Remember they own the ATD and they will dictate that we go too. If you think you'll have a choice then you haven't been paying attention for a long time. Fleet runs our union and they are in charge of our negotiations. We had better start looking for legal advise to see if we can put a restraining order on them and keep their hands off our pension.

Actually, that hasn't been true for many, many years. There has clearly been a separation. In a TA vote, that separation still exists since we have separate CBA's.

In Fleet, I can tell you that not everyone is enamored with the IAMNPP. However, for the younger crowd if may be advantageous to participate, if given a choice. It will allow them to diversify their retirement and not have all their eggs in one basket.

For us older folk, it would only be appealing if they credit us with 5 or 10 years of vested time. (depends how many years you'd have left)

It is understood why so many have a negative a vibe with the IAMNPP and feel a distrust with the TWU, but the IAM taking over our Pension Plan or force us into the the Plan makes little financial sense.

What makes prefect sense is if the new hires get automatically enrolled in the IAMNPP. Makes no sense, other than for conspiracy theory reasons, to force everyone into it.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

Actually, that hasn't been true for many, many years. There has clearly been a separation. In a TA vote, that separation still exists since we have separate CBA's.

In Fleet, I can tell you that not everyone is enamored with the IAMNPP. However, for the younger crowd if may be advantageous to participate, if given a choice. It will allow them to diversify their retirement and not have all their eggs in one basket.

For us older folk, it would only be appealing if they credit us with 5 or 10 years of vested time. (depends how many years you'd have left)

It is understood why so many have a negative a vibe with the IAMNPP and feel a distrust with the TWU, but the IAM taking over our Pension Plan or force us into the the Plan makes little financial sense.

What makes prefect sense is if the new hires get automatically enrolled in the IAMNPP. Makes no sense, other than for conspiracy theory reasons, to force everyone into it.

Just watch and see. Although we are supposedly separate we have no representation for AMTs at the international level. In fact a fleet service guy is in charge of our negotiations. If Fleet accepts the IAMNPF we AMTs won't have a choice. It makes no financial sense except that the influx of money into it would help short term. Since the TWU has never considered anything that would damage us in the long term I conclude they will remain consistent and finish the destruction of the pension. And this way they can blame the IAM and not AA or themselves. The only reason Stores has the best deal among us is that they are truly separate from Fleet. We lost our 6th week of vacation simply because Fleet decided to give theirs up. There is no way maintenance was going to be allowed any benefit that Fleet didn't have. We were, however, stripped of a few that Fleet was allowed to keep. Call it a conspiracy or whatever you want. The truth is that in the TWU the AMTs have taxation without representation. Fleet certainly wouldn't like it if it were all AMTs in the TWU ATD. We want different things. Our workforce is older than Fleet and so we have much more to lose in the IAMNPF. I have seen the sell job the TWU is putting on it and I can tell you that non AMTs are buying in while AMTs (with a few exceptions) are not wanting it. I am actually exploring legal options to prevent the TWU from giving my pension away to them. I don't care if every FSC wants to piss their pensions away. I do not and should not be forced into it. I didn't want an association either but was forced into that too. Don't try to say it won't or can't ever happen.

 

[NYer]

Just watch and see. Although we are supposedly separate we have no representation for AMTs at the international level. In fact a fleet service guy is in charge of our negotiations. If Fleet accepts the IAMNPF we AMTs won't have a choice. It makes no financial sense except that the influx of money into it would help short term. Since the TWU has never considered anything that would damage us in the long term I conclude they will remain consistent and finish the destruction of the pension. And this way they can blame the IAM and not AA or themselves. The only reason Stores has the best deal among us is that they are truly separate from Fleet. We lost our 6th week of vacation simply because Fleet decided to give theirs up. There is no way maintenance was going to be allowed any benefit that Fleet didn't have. We were, however, stripped of a few that Fleet was allowed to keep. Call it a conspiracy or whatever you want. The truth is that in the TWU the AMTs have taxation without representation. Fleet certainly wouldn't like it if it were all AMTs in the TWU ATD. We want different things. Our workforce is older than Fleet and so we have much more to lose in the IAMNPF. I have seen the sell job the TWU is putting on it and I can tell you that non AMTs are buying in while AMTs (with a few exceptions) are not wanting it. I am actually exploring legal options to prevent the TWU from giving my pension away to them. I don't care if every FSC wants to piss their pensions away. I do not and should not be forced into it. I didn't want an association either but was forced into that too. Don't try to say it won't or can't ever happen.

I understand the prolification of conspiracy theories makes it difficult to see this subject objectively, but it makes little financial sense for the IAM to take on any liability for our pensions. I'd agree they'd like to have more participation, and that's a possibility, but it is unlikely they take over the AMR Pension and the liability it comes with.

Aside from that, the Association Constitution has the current language that may lessen the anxiety of not controlling your destiny.

Article IV, Section 2(d) states that no TA will be submitted to vote of the Membership without both the majority of the NC and approval of the Director and Vice Director of the Association.

 

[swamt]

OldGuy hiyt the nail on the head. If you guys are forced into it then I would get prepared now for legal action when it does happen. At least take the steps to look into it. Or, kinda like he said, just sit back and let it happen to you. Why? Because they can do that brother.

 

[anotherdelay]

Just watch and see. Although we are supposedly separate we have no representation for AMTs at the international level. In fact a fleet service guy is in charge of our negotiations. If Fleet accepts the IAMNPF we AMTs won't have a choice. It makes no financial sense except that the influx of money into it would help short term. Since the TWU has never considered anything that would damage us in the long term I conclude they will remain consistent and finish the destruction of the pension. And this way they can blame the IAM and not AA or themselves. The only reason Stores has the best deal among us is that they are truly separate from Fleet. We lost our 6th week of vacation simply because Fleet decided to give theirs up. There is no way maintenance was going to be allowed any benefit that Fleet didn't have. We were, however, stripped of a few that Fleet was allowed to keep. Call it a conspiracy or whatever you want. The truth is that in the TWU the AMTs have taxation without representation. Fleet certainly wouldn't like it if it were all AMTs in the TWU ATD. We want different things. Our workforce is older than Fleet and so we have much more to lose in the IAMNPF. I have seen the sell job the TWU is putting on it and I can tell you that non AMTs are buying in while AMTs (with a few exceptions) are not wanting it. I am actually exploring legal options to prevent the TWU from giving my pension away to them. I don't care if every FSC wants to piss their pensions away. I do not and should not be forced into it. I didn't want an association either but was forced into that too. Don't try to say it won't or can't ever happen.

yeah times 50. Supporting each other is fine, but enough of this, all it does now is cause division. Let both groups negotiate for themselves.

 

[anotherdelay]

I understand the prolification of conspiracy theories makes it difficult to see this subject objectively, but it makes little financial sense for the IAM to take on any liability for our pensions. I'd agree they'd like to have more participation, and that's a possibility, but it is unlikely they take over the AMR Pension and the liability it comes with.

cut the crap of calling people conspiratorial. You are better than that. There are a lot legitimate concerns.

Look, putting new hires in 401k's with a match, make more sense than the pensions that are failing right now. Look, low interest rates have killed the pensions, along with expense ratios that didn't change and . Don't get me started on rate duration too, if interest rates start rising. that mark to market will put a lot more funds into endangered status. Many pensions have also been mismanaged. surprised? Finally the rate of retirees to new workers/contributors to increasing liabilities to from payouts, to said retirees, is the proverbial rowers in the boat trying to stay upright in the hurricane of retirees coming everyday, to more rowers coming in.

 

[AANOTOK]

Just give the folks a choice, nothing more nothing less. Having said that, the lack of Association choice definitely makes one wonder.

 

[NYer]

I understand the prolification of conspiracy theories makes it difficult to see this subject objectively, but it makes little financial sense for the IAM to take on any liability for our pensions. I'd agree they'd like to have more participation, and that's a possibility, but it is unlikely they take over the AMR Pension and the liability it comes with.

cut the crap of calling people conspiratorial. You are better than that. There are a lot legitimate concerns.

Look, putting new hires in 401k's with a match, make more sense than the pensions that are failing right now. Look, low interest rates have killed the pensions, along with expense ratios that didn't change and . Don't get me started on rate duration too, if interest rates start rising. that mark to market will put a lot more funds into endangered status. Many pensions have also been mismanaged. surprised? Finally the rate of retirees to new workers/contributors to increasing liabilities to from payouts, to said retirees, is the proverbial rowers in the boat trying to stay upright in the hurricane of retirees coming everyday, to more rowers coming in.

Don't think I called anyone specific conspirational, but there are some theories out that are not based on any fact just emotions like fear or anger.

You may believe a 401K is safer than a multi-employer pension, and in recent years that may seem to be true. However, 401K's get wiped out in the same manner as Pensions when there are national economic meltdowns. Millions lost value in the pensions and 401K's during the Savings and Loans crash, the Dot Com crash, the Mortgage Meltdown plus other smaller market corrections. In short, there is no safe haven for the middle class.

On the other hand, some that have 20 or 30 years to go would be better served if they're diversified. They can save in a 401K, which is hard when just starting out and planning a family, marriage, kids, a house and during those times it is advantageous to have a retirement plan that you don't have to contribute directly, such as a 401K.

We all know colleagues that have used their 401K plans as a bank account and taken loans against their money. Sometimes that may be inevitable, but it the worst thing you can do. In cases such as that, it is much better to have a diversified portfolio to protect you from downturns and yourself.

I'm sure many of us wished we started saving in a 401K much sooner and much more than we did. Luckily, for those of us that didn't, we also have a pension payout coming to us. In the end, isn't it better to have a 401K, some kind of pension and social security. I think so.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

yeah times 50. Supporting each other is fine, but enough of this, all it does now is cause division. Let both groups negotiate for themselves.

Nicely said. I got Fleet's back and support them as they support us but let us negotiate on our own. If they are happy I say let them have what they want. However just because it fits for them doesn't mean it fits for us. I don't think for one second our Fleet guys are looking to do us harm but I don't trust our TWU International non-elected officials at all. They paid the Teamsters to keep us from going AMFA and they sold us out to the association.

 

[anotherdelay]

Don't think I called anyone specific conspirational, but there are some theories out that are not based on any fact just emotions like fear or anger.

You may believe a 401K is safer than a multi-employer pension, and in recent years that may seem to be true. However, 401K's get wiped out in the same manner as Pensions when there are national economic meltdowns. Millions lost value in the pensions and 401K's during the Savings and Loans crash, the Dot Com crash, the Mortgage Meltdown plus other smaller market corrections. In short, there is no safe haven for the middle class.

On the other hand, some that have 20 or 30 years to go would be better served if they're diversified. They can save in a 401K, which is hard when just starting out and planning a family, marriage, kids, a house and during those times it is advantageous to have a retirement plan that you don't have to contribute directly, such as a 401K.

We all know colleagues that have used their 401K plans as a bank account and taken loans against their money. Sometimes that may be inevitable, but it the worst thing you can do. In cases such as that, it is much better to have a diversified portfolio to protect you from downturns and yourself.

I'm sure many of us wished we started saving in a 401K much sooner and much more than we did. Luckily, for those of us that didn't, we also have a pension payout coming to us. In the end, isn't it better to have a 401K, some kind of pension and social security. I think so.

road to hell is paved with good intentions. Look its hard to disagree with you or any of this. but the truth is even ss is in trouble, and in fact was once set up as tax and as acturial table, where the majority weren't supposed to paid out. The pensions don't have a printing press, worst thing that could happen to is for it to be sent to pbgc where you have to deal with less ss now to.

Look, reality bites right now. 20 years ago, I was with you.

 

[1AA]

For us older folk, it would only be appealing if they credit us with 5 or 10 years of vested time. (depends how many years you'd have left)

Actually if the IAMPF goes insolvent the PBGC would only pay you for the time you have in the fund. They will not pay you for the credited time in addition to the actual time in the plan. The PBGC also pays at a lower rate than what any union pension pays out. The PBGC is also in financial distress. The PBGC is no longer the scape goat of miss managed union pensions. This is why the IAMPF needs our money to stay afloat. I say no way. The IAM guys can keep that scam union pension if they want. Don't include me in that scam which will seriously screw my retirement. I'll keep the 401K with hopes of a better agreement similar to the pilots.

 

[anotherdelay]

you guys should make up buttons that say due diligence