Aircraft maint issues

[Tom Talbert 1888]

Nor USAir....

US Air went away in 1998.

 

[Rogallo]

 

[Rogallo]

My feelings are hurt!

 

[topDawg]

Because I was speaking of compensation of the employee which is as close as one could expect.The Mechanics per aircraft is a valid number as Robert Isom spoke in those terms at the ORD last summer. AA/TWU counts it's membership as if everyone is a technician. Your example brings in costs that all airlines must use, it is part of the overhead. Having one shop or seven makes no difference, as the volume of work must be considered. You are not wrong, but again I was asking for compensation.

but that is the problem. Management uses that number because they know its a BS stat. The issue is the union doesn't point out how stupid it is.
Having many more mechanics per tail than Southwest is just as much American's fault as it is on the mechanics for demanding how much work is done in house.

Just imagine if American was a 737/777/787 airline. That would be default lower mechanic needs. Who's fault is it the American has ~16 airframe types and ~12 engine types?
Who's fault is it Delta has ~20 airframe types and ~16 engine types?

They are just as much to blame for the high number of extra employees and the cost issues as we are. The problems they are trying to put it all on us so we will take losses to get the number down.

If the Association and company decide to ensure A&P tickets are required for the mechanic position, there will be employee movement.

as I have said before this is a terrible idea. If we (the mechanic) ever forced this issue we would lose jobs even faster than we did in bankruptcy. I don't know how many non-licensed mechanics you guys have or how it works, but fact is Delta doesn't need an A&P to do things like washing the airplane, painting the airplane, and some of the back shop and even cabin work that is done. Fact is if we didn't have MUE's and ASMs doing some of these jobs, they would be sent to a vendor.

Also I am a big fan of un-licensed mechanics because it gives them time to get their feet wet doing some of these less skilled jobs so they become better mechanics. Hell I wish I could have worked at Delta while going to school building my time up like these kids now can.
We just have to keep a fair number on how many of these people we allow to keep the company from adding too many.

Hey, what's the 3 letter code for Santiago?

SCL

There are a lot of should have's, AA in my 30+ years has always created a fund for the TWU to give out and they own the union. Could you explain that? Labor is the largest part of maintenance.

Labor is the highest cost of maintenance, sometimes.
Engines for example cost more in parts than labor. That is why we (Delta) and United, and you guys before Parker and the IAM came to town, were so good at selling engine services. Same deal with most components.

In airframe, labor is the highest cost, but you would be surprised at how much the supply chain side costs. Also a big reason airframe overhauls are so labor cost heavy is because we do so much of pull and replace with a LRU coming out of a shop.

No you are not wrong. That is the problem with industrial unions. They have to represent many work groups under one umbrella. So you keep the majority happier than the minority. Strength in numbers, right?

This should be framed and put on a wall everywhere.
trade unions have just become the corporations they were meant to fight. At the end of the day you are just a number on the page trying to make a profit.

So the TWU does not fight for Aircraft Mechanic huh?

“Just how friendly are U.S. skies? Former U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge has been hired to find out.

Ridge, founder of Ridge Global, has inked a deal with Transport Workers Union to conduct a security assessment on American Airline planes that are serviced in hangars overseas.

A Republican who was also the governor of Pennsylvania from 1995 to 2001, Ridge will “evaluate and assess critical repair and maintenance work performed on U.S. passenger aircraft,” his firm said in announcing the contract.

TWU said it has specifically requested that Ridge focus on whether the “off-shoring” of such work to foreign countries is a danger to the American public.”


https://www.google.com/amp/www.nyda...robe-plane-repairs-overseas-article-1.3688696

Oh they are hiring someone to tell the world how terrible outsourced maintenance is. I'm sure the airlines will change right away.

Why now, WeAAsles? AA has been sending planes overseas for years for heavy maintenance. So why now? Why didn’t they take his step when it first started? Why didn’t they hire Ridge years ago?

Do you think that maybe, just maybe, it is in the realm of possibilities that the TWU is worrying about the loss of more union dues due to posssible increase in outsourcing?

Is the TWU not concerned with sending aircraft to Timco or Haecon Americas because they are US contractors?
Which is more of a concern for the TWU? Security in overseas facilities or job loss?

first, TIMCO is HAECO Ameircas
but second both is the answer to your question. As we saw with southwest, they were willing to give up a fairly large cost concession to mechanics to get the "must be done in the US rule out"

US vendors don't offer the labor advantage vendors from China, Mexico etc. do. They generally offer a better product and better supply chain costs but the only reason vendors like AAR and TIMCO grew so much in the country is because American, Delta, United etc. wanted the work outsourced and wanted it outsourced yesterday. Being in the US lowers the learning curve and allows for better airline overwatch. Once they figured out how to do it, we have seen a shift of work going out of country from the big airlines. This is why most of the second tier vendors have either gone bankrupt, gotten much smaller, been bought by a bigger MRO or gone out of business. PEMCO, for example, was expanding like crazy then their costs got too high, they lost United and jetBlue to other vendors and they ended up selling their Birmingham base to ST aero and closing the old Delta hangar in Tampa.

It would actually be a small win for us if the work had to come back the US vendors. It would be a lot harder for American, United and Delta to keep up the outsourcing scam, plus a solid chance of unions setting up shop at those vendors.

Your general point is correct. The TWU sees all that work at vendors as dollars they are losing. At the same time the only way we will ever make progress on getting said work back is the media picking up how dangerous those vendors and their product is.

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/amp/Alaska-Air-shuts-Oakland-base-340-maintenance-2726556.php

Great track record, not.

Ah yes. Should be look at the IAM's track record at the same airline? go ask a Alaska ramper how awesome their job is.



oh wait. The IAM game them way......

 

[B737 driver]

Driver,

Article 3 is Scope??

Question: What is the title of the intermediate check in your CBA, as it’s not listed in you Scope as that?

Question: Is this check have to be done in a hangar, if so line or base?

Question: You CBA states if they don’t have the facility or qualified personnel they can outsource it?

In regards to ETOPS.

Question: You CBA states if work wasn’t done previously at that location they can outsource it, so since HNL never had mechanics and never did an ETOPS check they can farm it out?

Question: Since next WN location or mechanic has never done an ETOPS check, can they farm it out?

They consider Y checks, MV checks, C checks our work. The ETOPS is considered a line check, therefore it is our work. That is why the company was asking for relief in contact negotiations. So the lawsuit was filed to protect our work.

 

[B737 driver]

but that is the problem. Management uses that number because they know its a BS stat. The issue is the union doesn't point out how stupid it is.
Having many more mechanics per tail than Southwest is just as much American's fault as it is on the mechanics for demanding how much work is done in house.

Just imagine if American was a 737/777/787 airline. That would be default lower mechanic needs. Who's fault is it the American has ~16 airframe types and ~12 engine types?
Who's fault is it Delta has ~20 airframe types and ~16 engine types?

They are just as much to blame for the high number of extra employees and the cost issues as we are. The problems they are trying to put it all on us so we will take losses to get the number down.

as I have said before this is a terrible idea. If we (the mechanic) ever forced this issue we would lose jobs even faster than we did in bankruptcy. I don't know how many non-licensed mechanics you guys have or how it works, but fact is Delta doesn't need an A&P to do things like washing the airplane, painting the airplane, and some of the back shop and even cabin work that is done. Fact is if we didn't have MUE's and ASMs doing some of these jobs, they would be sent to a vendor.

Also I am a big fan of un-licensed mechanics because it gives them time to get their feet wet doing some of these less skilled jobs so they become better mechanics. Hell I wish I could have worked at Delta while going to school building my time up like these kids now can.
We just have to keep a fair number on how many of these people we allow to keep the company from adding too many.

SCL

Labor is the highest cost of maintenance, sometimes.
Engines for example cost more in parts than labor. That is why we (Delta) and United, and you guys before Parker and the IAM came to town, were so good at selling engine services. Same deal with most components.

In airframe, labor is the highest cost, but you would be surprised at how much the supply chain side costs. Also a big reason airframe overhauls are so labor cost heavy is because we do so much of pull and replace with a LRU coming out of a shop.


This should be framed and put on a wall everywhere.
trade unions have just become the corporations they were meant to fight. At the end of the day you are just a number on the page trying to make a profit.


Oh they are hiring someone to tell the world how terrible outsourced maintenance is. I'm sure the airlines will change right away.

first, TIMCO is HAECO Ameircas
but second both is the answer to your question. As we saw with southwest, they were willing to give up a fairly large cost concession to mechanics to get the "must be done in the US rule out"

US vendors don't offer the labor advantage vendors from China, Mexico etc. do. They generally offer a better product and better supply chain costs but the only reason vendors like AAR and TIMCO grew so much in the country is because American, Delta, United etc. wanted the work outsourced and wanted it outsourced yesterday. Being in the US lowers the learning curve and allows for better airline overwatch. Once they figured out how to do it, we have seen a shift of work going out of country from the big airlines. This is why most of the second tier vendors have either gone bankrupt, gotten much smaller, been bought by a bigger MRO or gone out of business. PEMCO, for example, was expanding like crazy then their costs got too high, they lost United and jetBlue to other vendors and they ended up selling their Birmingham base to ST aero and closing the old Delta hangar in Tampa.

It would actually be a small win for us if the work had to come back the US vendors. It would be a lot harder for American, United and Delta to keep up the outsourcing scam, plus a solid chance of unions setting up shop at those vendors.

Your general point is correct. The TWU sees all that work at vendors as dollars they are losing. At the same time the only way we will ever make progress on getting said work back is the media picking up how dangerous those vendors and their product is.

Ah yes. Should be look at the IAM's track record at the same airline? go ask a Alaska ramper how awesome their job is.



oh wait. The IAM game them way......

PEMCO in Dothan Alabama had the IAM there at one time. The difference between American Delta and Southwest , all of our maintenance is cost. You guys at least perform maintenance for other airlines. So you guys produce a profit.

 

[Tom Talbert 1888]

Driver you seemed to have skipped over the language questions I posted. Did you not comprehend your own contract language?

Let me ask you again:

Question: Is this check have to be done in a hangar, if so line or base?

Question: You CBA states if they don’t have the facility or qualified personnel they can outsource it?

In regards to ETOPS.

Question: You CBA states if work wasn’t done previously at that location they can outsource it, so since HNL never had mechanics and never did an ETOPS check they can farm it out?

Question: Since next WN location or mechanic has never done an ETOPS check, can they farm it out?

 

[Tom Talbert 1888]

but that is the problem. Management uses that number because they know its a BS stat. The issue is the union doesn't point out how stupid it is.
Having many more mechanics per tail than Southwest is just as much American's fault as it is on the mechanics for demanding how much work is done in house.

Just imagine if American was a 737/777/787 airline. That would be default lower mechanic needs. Who's fault is it the American has ~16 airframe types and ~12 engine types?
Who's fault is it Delta has ~20 airframe types and ~16 engine types?

They are just as much to blame for the high number of extra employees and the cost issues as we are. The problems they are trying to put it all on us so we will take losses to get the number down.

as I have said before this is a terrible idea. If we (the mechanic) ever forced this issue we would lose jobs even faster than we did in bankruptcy. I don't know how many non-licensed mechanics you guys have or how it works, but fact is Delta doesn't need an A&P to do things like washing the airplane, painting the airplane, and some of the back shop and even cabin work that is done. Fact is if we didn't have MUE's and ASMs doing some of these jobs, they would be sent to a vendor.

Also I am a big fan of un-licensed mechanics because it gives them time to get their feet wet doing some of these less skilled jobs so they become better mechanics. Hell I wish I could have worked at Delta while going to school building my time up like these kids now can.
We just have to keep a fair number on how many of these people we allow to keep the company from adding too many.

SCL

Labor is the highest cost of maintenance, sometimes.
Engines for example cost more in parts than labor. That is why we (Delta) and United, and you guys before Parker and the IAM came to town, were so good at selling engine services. Same deal with most components.

In airframe, labor is the highest cost, but you would be surprised at how much the supply chain side costs. Also a big reason airframe overhauls are so labor cost heavy is because we do so much of pull and replace with a LRU coming out of a shop.


This should be framed and put on a wall everywhere.
trade unions have just become the corporations they were meant to fight. At the end of the day you are just a number on the page trying to make a profit.


Oh they are hiring someone to tell the world how terrible outsourced maintenance is. I'm sure the airlines will change right away.

first, TIMCO is HAECO Ameircas
but second both is the answer to your question. As we saw with southwest, they were willing to give up a fairly large cost concession to mechanics to get the "must be done in the US rule out"

US vendors don't offer the labor advantage vendors from China, Mexico etc. do. They generally offer a better product and better supply chain costs but the only reason vendors like AAR and TIMCO grew so much in the country is because American, Delta, United etc. wanted the work outsourced and wanted it outsourced yesterday. Being in the US lowers the learning curve and allows for better airline overwatch. Once they figured out how to do it, we have seen a shift of work going out of country from the big airlines. This is why most of the second tier vendors have either gone bankrupt, gotten much smaller, been bought by a bigger MRO or gone out of business. PEMCO, for example, was expanding like crazy then their costs got too high, they lost United and jetBlue to other vendors and they ended up selling their Birmingham base to ST aero and closing the old Delta hangar in Tampa.

It would actually be a small win for us if the work had to come back the US vendors. It would be a lot harder for American, United and Delta to keep up the outsourcing scam, plus a solid chance of unions setting up shop at those vendors.

Your general point is correct. The TWU sees all that work at vendors as dollars they are losing. At the same time the only way we will ever make progress on getting said work back is the media picking up how dangerous those vendors and their product is.

Ah yes. Should be look at the IAM's track record at the same airline? go ask a Alaska ramper how awesome their job is.



oh wait. The IAM game them way......

Guess you don’t know the whole case now do you?

It happened only in SEA, the IAM took it too arbitration and won.

The laid off employees received a monetary settlement.

Here you go mr smug.

https://www.seattletimes.com/busine...contract-when-it-outsourced-baggage-handling/

 

[delldude]

US Air went away in 1998.

And what was it....2005 you went away?

 

[737823]

Guess you don’t know the whole case now do you?

It happened only in SEA, the IAM took it too arbitration and won.

The laid off employees received a monetary settlement.

Here you go mr smug.

https://www.seattletimes.com/busine...contract-when-it-outsourced-baggage-handling/

And now that work is done by low wage McGee.

Yesterday you made a big deal about how US never had ready reserve even though the CBA language allowed it, well Alaska contracted out SEA even though the IAM took a few shekels from the company and left their members out in the lurch as Kev would say. Try to be consistent, so if you insist the IAM language was tested here, then your negotiators rolled over at US and gave ready reserve even though the company never implemented it.

“If Alaska is looking for a fight that may prove fatal to the airline, they have found one,” Robert Roach Jr., general vice president of transportation for the IAM, said in a statement.

I still chuckle reading this. The IAM has fallen backwards lost members and is in the fetal position today yet AS is stronger than ever.

Josh

 

[737823]

And what was it....2005 you went away?

Dell do you also believe is this a certain former poster under a new handle? The post content and style is very similar.

Josh

 

[B737 driver]

Driver you seemed to have skipped over the language questions I posted. Did you not comprehend your own contract language?

Let me ask you again:

Question: Is this check have to be done in a hangar, if so line or base?

Question: You CBA states if they don’t have the facility or qualified personnel they can outsource it?

In regards to ETOPS.

Question: You CBA states if work wasn’t done previously at that location they can outsource it, so since HNL never had mechanics and never did an ETOPS check they can farm it out?

Question: Since next WN location or mechanic has never done an ETOPS check, can they farm it out?

All I can tell you Tom in our negotiations the company ask for relief for the ETOPS checks outside the 48 continental United States. If this wasn't our work, they wouldn't have any reason to ask for relief. If you don't believe me, ask SWamt or read the AMFA updates.

 

[Tom Talbert 1888]

All I can tell you Tom in our negotiations the company ask for relief for the ETOPS checks outside the 48 continental United States. If this wasn't our work, they wouldn't have any reason to ask for relief. If you don't believe me, ask SWamt or read the AMFA updates.

Did you not read the language contained in Article 3?

That’s what WN will use against you.

And if AMFA really filed a lawsuit over the ETOPS work they will kick it back to the grievance procedure as it’s not a Major Dispute.

And I wouldn’t base your argument on that they asked.

 

[WeAAsles]

Did you not read the language contained in Article 3?

That’s what WN will use against you.

And if AMFA really filed a lawsuit over the ETOPS work they will kick it back to the grievance procedure as it’s not a Major Dispute.

And I wouldn’t base your argument on that they asked.

Is there a letter of proof that they really asked or was that something claimed? After over 5 years wouldn’t you think Negotiators have to say something to keep the masses on their side?

The irony is yes that can be applie to our talks as well. Company says one thing, Union says another. Who do you “choose” to believe?

 

[B737 driver]

Did you not read the language contained in Article 3?

That’s what WN will use against you.

And if AMFA really filed a lawsuit over the ETOPS work they will kick it back to the grievance procedure as it’s not a Major Dispute.

And I wouldn’t base your argument on that they asked.

I couldn't get it to upload go to the AMFA page update on ETOPS Nov 2, 2017, and yes a grievance was filed. It shows the evidence you were asking about.