It would never work at DFW, There are several times a day when we have six taxi crews tied up moving A/C. These moves can take up to 2 hours or more depending on circumstances like ATC traffic, ramp congestion, gate not open, broken jetbrige, or no agent to let us off the A/C. Three broke dick Goldhofers ain't gonna cut it.
Aircraft maint issues
- Thread starter conehead777
- Start date
It would never work at DFW, There are several times a day when we have six taxi crews tied up moving A/C. These moves can take up to 2 hours or more depending on circumstances like ATC traffic, ramp congestion, gate not open, broken jetbrige, or no agent to let us off the A/C. Three broke dick Goldhofers ain't gonna cut it.
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DallasConehead
Guest
In terms aircraft movements, ORD is 2nd, DFW is 3rd and SFO is 20th. Some moves at DFW require crossing 4 different actives.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_airports_by_aircraft_movements
BTW, I call BS on fleet crossing a runway at SFO. The airport diagram clearly shows Zulu as a taxi way around. There is no such taxiway for the west company hangar complex at DFW.
http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/SFO/APD/AIRPORT+DIAGRAM/pdf
As an AMT on the dayshift move crew there, when it's raining and the winds change or Charlie, Zulu taxi ways are having repairs done. We usually use Echo, Delta or Kilo to go across the 28/10s to the gate or vice versa. The USAir fleet service move crews go the same way to their gates at terminal 1. So yes, we do cross the active RUNWAYS. That includes USAir moves done by their fleet service folks.
So,if you still think that it's B.S, that is your privilege, but it's the truth. Goey is on days at SFO too and if he see's this post, he will back me up.
And by the way the USAir fleet service guys that move aircraft via Goldhofer, are pretty good.
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it kills me the amount of arrogance about towing an aircraft, yes it is dangerous to move aircraft at an airport during flight operations, but we all were new doing it at one time or another. We were trained just like the FSCs will be trained. It sucks losing that work, but who actually thinks we are going to get Delta pay but keep AAs 1990s head count and scope.
Do not make the mistake thinking that you are better then anyone else just because you're a mech. Look how many former FSCs are mechs, I know FSC that are pilots, firemen and entrepreneurs. They just have a different job then us, and at DFW there are FSCs that are former AFW mechs that didn't want to leave Texas for some reason, there is even a station where Eagle ramp move our planes around the airport, and that includes running the APU talking on the radios and going on the taxi ways ($15 an hour).
Do not make the mistake thinking that you are better then anyone else just because you're a mech. Look how many former FSCs are mechs, I know FSC that are pilots, firemen and entrepreneurs. They just have a different job then us, and at DFW there are FSCs that are former AFW mechs that didn't want to leave Texas for some reason, there is even a station where Eagle ramp move our planes around the airport, and that includes running the APU talking on the radios and going on the taxi ways ($15 an hour).
MetalMover
Veteran
- Sep 16, 2013
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Excellent point...we were all NEW at one time. We all had a learning curve. So will the fleet guys.
After doing it day in and day out, they will be just as good as anyone else.
Other airlines and ground handling services use their fleet people to move aircraft all over airports all over the country, and I am sure the world. Losing work always sux, but to say that no one else can do this job is a bit of a stretch.
Was it not because of a runway incursion at DFW by a mechanic that changed the whole towbarless procedures in the early days? Have mechanics not screwed up since the Goldhofer came on the scene?
We screwed up, they will also screw up..That's the learning process. I see non mechanics dragging aircraft of all sizes up the A380 all day long with no problems.
Let's just keep it to the "loss of work" debate as opposed to "they're gonna screw up" debate.
MetalMover
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The FAA has no problem with work being outsourced all over the world....but they are super strict on mechanics-only moving aircraft. I doubt it.
99Roadstar
Member
- Jul 12, 2011
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LOL!!! Who actually believes we will get delta + ?!?!?!?
- Aug 20, 2002
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I am not sure if the Taxi Tow issue is going to apply either while training or eventually once moved to Fleet Service. The new compensation under the chart in the contract states that Fleet Service will be compensated plus $1.92/hour?
ARTICLE 4 – COMPENSATION
(f) Cross Utilization Pay Guides
(1) When an employee, hired prior to February 11, 1983, is cross utilized in excess of the time parameters outlined in Article 11(h) of this Agreement into a classification having a higher top chart hourly rate than that of the classification in which he is regularly employed, he will be compensated the additional hourly amounts for those hours as specified in Article 11(h), as indicated on the following attached chart. ( continues )
ARTICLE 4 – COMPENSATION
(f) Cross Utilization Pay Guides
(1) When an employee, hired prior to February 11, 1983, is cross utilized in excess of the time parameters outlined in Article 11(h) of this Agreement into a classification having a higher top chart hourly rate than that of the classification in which he is regularly employed, he will be compensated the additional hourly amounts for those hours as specified in Article 11(h), as indicated on the following attached chart. ( continues )
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DallasConehead
Guest
The poster asked why DFW and ORD were not on the list. I gave what I believe are the reasons and data to add weight to my arguement.. If someone believes differently thats their choice
Whats more the runway incursion occurred at DFW because the Goldhofer AST1 was mechanically incabable of stopping on short notice with the load of a 777-200 in tow, not a lapse in judgement.
Whats more the runway incursion occurred at DFW because the Goldhofer AST1 was mechanically incabable of stopping on short notice with the load of a 777-200 in tow, not a lapse in judgement.
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Deleted member 14439
Guest
Whether or not we get it or not remains to be seen. Point is the leadership of this company is on record countless times touting the Delta+7%. Now back pedaling to Delta+3%. We and our "union leadership " should do all we can to hold them to their word.
MetalMover
Veteran
- Sep 16, 2013
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Ok, I stand corrected. Since it was not a lapse in judgement, would it matter any more or less if it happened to a trained fleet service person behind the wheel rather than a trained mechanic?
I heard similar arguments in the 80's when fleet started taking over deicing and pushbacks...The end of the world did not happen then, and it certainly will not happen now.
Like I said before, the bigger issue here is LOSS of mechanic's work, not mechanic's are the only ones in the industry good enough to do this work.
- Aug 20, 2002
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I believe we have more mechanics than either Delta or United? While I do not like the thought, you may already have a comparable compensation, failing the other benefits such as vacation and holidays etc...
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DallasConehead
Guest
It would not matter, there are lives involved and I agree, loss of work is the issue.
These are the facts:
- DFW and ORD were excluded from AAs list of stations where ramp will do aircraft moves to/from the hangars.
- DFW and ORD are the 2nd and 3rd busiest airports respectively in terms of aircraft movements in the country.
- Ramp personnel are capable of using Towbarless vehicles to do aircraft moves and do so at other airports in the USA.
- Aircraft movement via aircraft engine run and taxi and tow vehicle was part of the curriculum to obtain FAA certification as an Airframe and Powerplant mechanic. As least it was when I went to school.
AA was forced to exclude DFW and ORD from the list. They didn’t exclude those stations out of the “goodness of their heart” or because of safety concerns. An entity with authority made policy to AA, I do not believe it was the FAA given Slopoke’s information. I believe the FAA is a federal authority and would have uniform policies nationwide including SFO. Therefore, some other authority made policy, possibly the airport authority? Such as DFW Airport, O’Hare Airport or the Chicago Dept of Aviation.
It is also my belief that it is not completely safe for anyone to use Towbarless vehicles to cross runways at DFW. I believe this because of the tempo of the operation during peak times and the condition of the Goldhofers and the manner in which they are maintained by AA management. This belief is not derived from arrogance. It is my belief that the safest way to move aircraft across the runways at DFW is with an FAA Certificated Airman with the ratings of Airframe and Powerplant qualified to Run/Taxi the aircraft involved.
It is also my belief that our union has failed us because we should not be asking each other these questions on an aviation blog and be forced to speculate. The union should find out the reasons and inform the membership.
- Aug 20, 2002
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(h) Regardless of any provision in this Agreement, the Stores Agreement, or the Fleet Service Agreement, the Company may assign or schedule any employee to perform work of any classification under this Agreement, the Stores Agreement, or the Fleet Service Agreement. Provided, however, the Company will not assign Aviation Maintenance Technicians to do that work now performed by Building Cleaners.
(1) Any employee who performs two (2) or more hours of work during his daily tour of duty in a higher classification within his Occupational Title Group than the classification, in which he is regularly employed, will be compensated as outlined in Article 4 for the time so worked. Any employee who performs two (2) or more hours of work during his daily tour of duty in a higher classification in a different Occupational Title Group, the Stores Agreement, or the Fleet Service Agreement than the classification in which he is regularly employed, will be compensated as outlined in Article 4 for his entire tour of duty.
(2) An employee who worked in a classification having the same or a lower hourly rate than his own classification will continue to receive his base hourly rate.
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Deleted member 14439
Guest
Come on Buck. Don't make excuses for the company to fall short of the stated compensation. That's very similar to falling for the concessions for jobs song and dance. No, Parker and company have stated Delta+7%. They are on record that we will have that industry leading contract on DOS. I and I would hope many others will hold them and the illegitimate, unelected association to it! No more excuses.
