AE/Envoy Pilots Reject AIP

[jimntx]

No, they could switch them to writing citations for passengers who openly refuse to comply with FAA regulations.    (At least, that's my dream.)
For instance, those passengers who think that hiding their cell phone under their fat leg is the same as putting it in airplane mode, or that the instruction to put it in airplane mode means AFTER they have checked Facebook for the umpteenth time this morning.

 

[mwa]

Nevertheless, he was very thorough in surfacing the issues. One of the better articles that I have read as it seems the topic exploded recently. Now Eric, you seem to habitually line up against pilots in every fray. I don't think you have an appreciation for the plight of the nonlegacy flight crews. 

 

[nycbusdriver]

http://www.bizjournals.com/bizjournals/blog/seat2B/2014/02/commuter-airlines-face-pilot-shortage.html?page=all

 
Good article.  Demonstrates yet again that airline management have never quite figured out the "high cost of cheap."

 

[eolesen]

M, I probably appreciate the plight of the non-legacy guys better than you're giving me credit for -- I know several guys who've chosen to stay with flight instructing and/or bizjet flying rather than to go work for the likes of GLUX or Mesa. The situation at the bottom does have to change.

I'm not against the pilots -- I'm more against ALPA. They've been all too happy to take in the dues income from the regionals they organized, but what have they done to improve the pay situation at the bottom of the ladder?

Everything Joe's talked about in his article has been written about in Plane Business and even in a few of the research notes by the equity analysts. There was really nothing new except for some of Joe's usual snarkasm.

 

[PullUp]

XJT guys are graduating to JetBlue, UA,DAL and the cargo carriers. Many FO's are going w/o CA experience. Their pilots are not beaten down with threats to divest, IPO, Comair, or shrink them.
 

Some carriers prefer hiring F/O's to captains because they have enough experience but are still trainable.
The guys that have been in the left seat a while are having a hard time transitioning back to the right seat role and unlearning old habits.
Cheers.

 

[Claxon]

M, I probably appreciate the plight of the non-legacy guys better than you're giving me credit for -- I know several guys who've chosen to stay with flight instructing and/or bizjet flying rather than to go work for the likes of GLUX or Mesa. The situation at the bottom does have to change.I'm not against the pilots -- I'm more against ALPA. They've been all too happy to take in the dues income from the regionals they organized, but what have they done to improve the pay situation at the bottom of the ladder?Everything Joe's talked about in his article has been written about in Plane Business and even in a few of the research notes by the equity analysts. There was really nothing new except for some of Joe's usual snarkasm.

Spot on.

 

[mwa]

You won't hear accolades from me re ALPA
Every organization grows corrupt over time and they are no exception
The marketplace will rule in the end
The irony of ALPA is this - they are setting below market rates for entry level FO's - this is confirmed by those exiting to more lucrative careers both in and out of aviation
Non 121 carriers are paying more than their counterparts - if that is not the free market setting rates then I do not know what is
I must have misread you on the regional pay and qol issues - my apologies
The flying of larger ejets needs to be done under mainline IMHO

 

[eolesen]

To be clear... my main interest has always been the cost side of the equation, not the pay. How a contract gets structured is more important than the hourly rates.

The larger point I've been trying to make is that regionals (or the majors on their behalf) are going to cut back service one way or another. If pay does go up, there's a point where the flying becomes unprofitable, and that margin is a lot closer for regionals than it is for the mainline.

E-jets at the mainline? Maybe the 90 seaters, but to date, there are very few airlines who've done that successfully in practice.

 

[FWAAA]

I think it was Mach85 who has previously posted that the APA was willing to offer cut-rate hourly rates for smaller planes but that the big issue for the APA is that none of the other workgroups were also willing to offer a B-scale (FAs, maintenance and fleet) and that the pilots weren't willing to be the only mainline workgroup working for American Eagle wages.   Obviously, the smaller planes' economics don't work with just the pilots making cheap wages - it takes the entire village working for Eagle wages to make 76-seaters economical.   

 

[eolesen]

Ironic that those negotiating the book rates were concerned about what the other workgroups make. APA and ALPA don't seem to care if they're getting paid twice as much when the plane is bigger, while everyone else gets paid the same regardless of gauge.

 

[AirLUVer]

Once the slot divestitures are activated at DCA, there will be an excess of RJ's for a few months at the "new American".  This will probably help ramp up some of the retirements of the scope busting 144's.

 

[mwa]

If the cost of doing business to communities becomes unsustainable - ie sufficient revenue cannot be garnered and the efficiencies are exhausted then yes service will be suspended
Problem that I see daily is gross inefficiency and the fox guarding the henhouse so that nothing gets reported or truly accounted for
Then there is the bloated ranks of mgmt bureaucracy that is untouchable
Same approach each time - go after the soft targets
Well this time the window is closed
The same yahoos that drove the ship into the dirt are setting up for act 2 - concessions part 1 will not pacify them because the way they do business is fundamentally flawed
How can we give back enough to pay for waiting to park for 10 mins to an hour because of the practice of "dynamic manning?" Time for the bean counters to take a back seat to operations
Look across the landscape of corporate failures that have occurred because staff functions have blindly dictated operations

 

[nycbusdriver]

Ironic that those negotiating the book rates were concerned about what the other workgroups make. APA and ALPA don't seem to care if they're getting paid twice as much when the plane is bigger, while everyone else gets paid the same regardless of gauge.

 
Flight attendants are paid by 50-seat blocks (or any portion thereof.)  On a 75 seater, there are two FAs.  On a 375 seater, there are required 8.  On a theoretical 1500-seat airplane, the regs require 30.  Their work load does not "expand" beyond 50 seats.  This, of course, disregards any real attempt at good customer service.
 
Pilot pay has traditionally been based on productivity.  Airlines produce and sell Available Seat Miles and time.  The bigger the airplane, the faster the airplane, the more valuable (theoretically) the "operators" of the ASL assembly line.  It was a wonderful model to benefit pilots during "regulated" days.  Pilots hate to admit this, but they are blue collar assembly line workers producing ASMs, and nothing more.
 
If a UAL DC-7 captain from 1950 had continued to fly at his pay rate to this day, with no hourly rate raises, but only cost of living adjustments, he would be making well of $400k/year.  Initially, the jets because of the speed and size, gave pilots huge increases based on that productivity model.  But since deregulation, pay in terms of real dollars, in terms of buying power, has plummeted for pilots despite any gain in productivity.

 

[eolesen]

The fact is all employees generate ASM's. Not just the guys with shiny stripes....

If pilot workload actually increased with a larger airplane, you might have an argument, but the inverse is true -- pilot workload typically decreases with larger airplanes because you're flying longer stage lengths, which means doing fewer takeoffs and landings.

The guys building F-250 pickups on the Ford assembly line don't get paid more than the guy building an Escort, and the Escorts are moving off the line faster than the F250's do.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Here is an idea. If the public wants the convenience of flying, maybe they should be willing to pay for it.
 
Nobody ever said flying was supposed to be super cheap.
 

 Pilots hate to admit this, but they are blue collar assembly line workers producing ASMs, and nothing more.

Pilots like anyone else expect a return for the investment they have made in education.