AdAstraPerAspera
Veteran
swamt said:
Republic did sell F9. Last year.
AE/Envoy Pilots Reject AIP
- Thread starter RJcasualty
- Start date
Republic did sell F9. Last year.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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unless someone wants to say otherwise, here is a fairly accurate assessment of the regional jet situation
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/02/16/these-little-planes-are-going-the-way-of-the-dodo.aspx
"However, the airline industry has changed dramatically in the last 10 years. Jet fuel prices have skyrocketed from less than $1 per gallon to around $3 per gallon. Business travelers have grown tired of the cramped conditions (and lack of first class seats) on 50-seat jets. Recently, pilot shortages have become yet another headache for 50-seat-jet operators.
"Delta recognized the declining viability of 50-seat jets before its peers. The company had an astounding 474 50-seat regional jets in service in 2009, but plans to shrink that fleet to no more than 125 planes by the end of 2015. (the reason is simply that DL was the first to finish its merger and begin to look at its integrated network thru the reality of $3/gal fuel and growing maintenance costs on small RJs; the pilot shortage wasn't a consideration for DL at that time)
"United and American have planned slower transitions away from 50-seat jets. United is adding 70 E-175s to its fleet in the next two years, and the company had originally planned to use them to replace 50-seat jets on a roughly one-for-one basis. The situation at American Airlines is similar. As of last month, its fleet plan included 305 small regional jets at year's end, but that number is likely to shrink.
"Just this week, the pilots union at wholly owned regional subsidiary American Eagle Airlines voted down a new contract. The pilots expect American to rapidly downsize the carrier's flight schedule and the union plans to help pilots find other jobs -- which shouldn't be hard given the demand for well-qualified pilots across the industry."
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/02/16/these-little-planes-are-going-the-way-of-the-dodo.aspx
"However, the airline industry has changed dramatically in the last 10 years. Jet fuel prices have skyrocketed from less than $1 per gallon to around $3 per gallon. Business travelers have grown tired of the cramped conditions (and lack of first class seats) on 50-seat jets. Recently, pilot shortages have become yet another headache for 50-seat-jet operators.
"Delta recognized the declining viability of 50-seat jets before its peers. The company had an astounding 474 50-seat regional jets in service in 2009, but plans to shrink that fleet to no more than 125 planes by the end of 2015. (the reason is simply that DL was the first to finish its merger and begin to look at its integrated network thru the reality of $3/gal fuel and growing maintenance costs on small RJs; the pilot shortage wasn't a consideration for DL at that time)
"United and American have planned slower transitions away from 50-seat jets. United is adding 70 E-175s to its fleet in the next two years, and the company had originally planned to use them to replace 50-seat jets on a roughly one-for-one basis. The situation at American Airlines is similar. As of last month, its fleet plan included 305 small regional jets at year's end, but that number is likely to shrink.
"Just this week, the pilots union at wholly owned regional subsidiary American Eagle Airlines voted down a new contract. The pilots expect American to rapidly downsize the carrier's flight schedule and the union plans to help pilots find other jobs -- which shouldn't be hard given the demand for well-qualified pilots across the industry."
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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that is precisely why they do declare their financial interest in the subject.
The facts are the facts regardless of whatever financial interest a carrier has on the subject.
AA and UA both have done less to reduce their fleet of small RJs than DL has. That is just a fact. We can talk about the reasons that DL has an advantage and had a headstart but the fact is that AA and UA are in roughly the same position.
UA just made the decision to close CLE as a hub with the shortage of RJ flying part of the equation.. but UA had the right to end some flying in the next couple years anyway. We don't know the deal that UA and Republic made but the chances are very high that UA gave up some flying now for performance guarantees.
Perhaps AA will pull off this labor issue with AE plus the reduction in pilots and there won't be any impact but no other legacy carrier is facing labor problems such as exist at AE on top of a shortage of pilots that the whole industry faces.
If AA really has duplication in its new route network, then it only makes sense to begin getting rid of that and not bleed money trying to prop up duplicate hubs. Everyone expected that AA would have to close a hub or two... this just might accelerate the process.
The facts are the facts regardless of whatever financial interest a carrier has on the subject.
AA and UA both have done less to reduce their fleet of small RJs than DL has. That is just a fact. We can talk about the reasons that DL has an advantage and had a headstart but the fact is that AA and UA are in roughly the same position.
UA just made the decision to close CLE as a hub with the shortage of RJ flying part of the equation.. but UA had the right to end some flying in the next couple years anyway. We don't know the deal that UA and Republic made but the chances are very high that UA gave up some flying now for performance guarantees.
Perhaps AA will pull off this labor issue with AE plus the reduction in pilots and there won't be any impact but no other legacy carrier is facing labor problems such as exist at AE on top of a shortage of pilots that the whole industry faces.
If AA really has duplication in its new route network, then it only makes sense to begin getting rid of that and not bleed money trying to prop up duplicate hubs. Everyone expected that AA would have to close a hub or two... this just might accelerate the process.
AAG has been planning fleet rationalization at AE for some time - move CRJ's to PSA
The plan has not changed, they outsource the large RJ flying and leave AE pilots to park the small RJ's in time. The promise of large RJ flying at AE is bait to keep those pilots in place until their replacements can be fully implemented. Since the AC go to AAG there is nothing that prevents them from moving them at will when the opportunity suits them.
Bedford begged the arbitrator to return to negotiations but was told by the vacationing gent that he was in Jackson Hole as I recall. Bedford flew all the parties there to get the deal done in a weekend with the pilots asking for and receiving the lion's share of there demands after 7 yrs of unfruitful "negotiations."
Bedford needed and industry leading contract because he wants to ensure staffing. Grounding 27 planes this year due to staffing PLUS they have not staffed the Q400 flying as contracted to UA.
Bean counters are confident that regional pilots will churn to another regional opportunity but the market place has spoken regarding regional pilot pay. AE is losing 50 pilots per month and Express Jet close to 80. On the AE side 20 are flowing to AA but what is more telling is the number of pilots in the remaining 30 that are giving up aviation entirely.
This when the mainline is spooling up to hire in massive numbers we have pilots leaving the ranks for other opportunities.
The plan has not changed, they outsource the large RJ flying and leave AE pilots to park the small RJ's in time. The promise of large RJ flying at AE is bait to keep those pilots in place until their replacements can be fully implemented. Since the AC go to AAG there is nothing that prevents them from moving them at will when the opportunity suits them.
Bedford begged the arbitrator to return to negotiations but was told by the vacationing gent that he was in Jackson Hole as I recall. Bedford flew all the parties there to get the deal done in a weekend with the pilots asking for and receiving the lion's share of there demands after 7 yrs of unfruitful "negotiations."
Bedford needed and industry leading contract because he wants to ensure staffing. Grounding 27 planes this year due to staffing PLUS they have not staffed the Q400 flying as contracted to UA.
Bean counters are confident that regional pilots will churn to another regional opportunity but the market place has spoken regarding regional pilot pay. AE is losing 50 pilots per month and Express Jet close to 80. On the AE side 20 are flowing to AA but what is more telling is the number of pilots in the remaining 30 that are giving up aviation entirely.
This when the mainline is spooling up to hire in massive numbers we have pilots leaving the ranks for other opportunities.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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very valid point, mwa.mwa said:
and that will only exacerbate the pilot shortage which for now has the potential to hit AE and thus AA's network than for other carriers.
DO you know if the pilot losses at ExpressJet are spread evenly across both the original ExpressJet operation and the ASA operation or are they more concentrated on one side or the other?
WorldTraveler said:
AA and UA have done less, because of their mainline contracts. Until AA went through the bankruptcy and got scope exemptions, they couldn't do anything more with regards to reducing the small RJ's and replacing with the larger RJ's. And then they couldn't excercise a new order until exiting bankruptcy. Continental also had zero capability to add in larger RJ's into it's fleet mix, which was not done away with until they got a JCBA with the pilots. DL and NW, both got that head start because of their head start through bankruptcy court.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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except DL and NW didn't go into BK first. UA and US did. and both UA and US had pilot contracts that allowed more liberal use of large RJs than AA or CO had.
Now all of the evidence about how great the employee relations were at CO and how solid the company was is coming home to roost as it becomes more and more apparent that CO's pilots handed UA with a labor provision that was a disaster waiting to happen -and that is exactly what is happening now. small RJ economics weren't great for connecting RJ traffic before but they could work for point to point traffic - which is what CO primarily used them for because CO's network was so heavily centered on its hubs and they had little marketing pull outside of them.
Now, UA has hundreds of small RJs inherited from CO and a pilot group that has said enough is enough in part because the UA pilots have already allowed many large RJs which were used to replace older 737s.
AA's pilots put their company in the same situation by refusing to allow more large RJs for so long. AA just got that relief, but as with so many things in AA's restructuring over the past year, it came years after other carriers who had already moved on to "the next big thing." AA got scope relief for large RJs just as the market for small RJs fell apart and as other carriers are expanding their own mainline operations instead of what is operated on regional carriers.
Now all of the evidence about how great the employee relations were at CO and how solid the company was is coming home to roost as it becomes more and more apparent that CO's pilots handed UA with a labor provision that was a disaster waiting to happen -and that is exactly what is happening now. small RJ economics weren't great for connecting RJ traffic before but they could work for point to point traffic - which is what CO primarily used them for because CO's network was so heavily centered on its hubs and they had little marketing pull outside of them.
Now, UA has hundreds of small RJs inherited from CO and a pilot group that has said enough is enough in part because the UA pilots have already allowed many large RJs which were used to replace older 737s.
AA's pilots put their company in the same situation by refusing to allow more large RJs for so long. AA just got that relief, but as with so many things in AA's restructuring over the past year, it came years after other carriers who had already moved on to "the next big thing." AA got scope relief for large RJs just as the market for small RJs fell apart and as other carriers are expanding their own mainline operations instead of what is operated on regional carriers.
XJT guys are graduating to JetBlue, UA,DAL and the cargo carriers. Many FO's are going w/o CA experience. Their pilots are not beaten down with threats to divest, IPO, Comair, or shrink them.
As an FAA jumpseater readily observed, if there is a pilot shortage the Airlines have only themselves to blame. AMR and now AAG have threatened AE employees since 2007 - effectively poisoning the waters for new recruits.
If I had these clowns managing my assets with only Lorenzo strategy in their arsenal then I deserve to lose my butt.
As an FAA jumpseater readily observed, if there is a pilot shortage the Airlines have only themselves to blame. AMR and now AAG have threatened AE employees since 2007 - effectively poisoning the waters for new recruits.
If I had these clowns managing my assets with only Lorenzo strategy in their arsenal then I deserve to lose my butt.
nevergiveup
Veteran
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With a pilot shortage they might not need as many FAA personnel as well.mwa said:
