Aa's Fortress Is Being Attacked...

[TWAnr]

Well passenger service is non-union, they do not have a contract so the company can and does do as they please.

Pilots at SWA clean aircraft? With the short turnarounds and tight schedules I would think that they would be doing walk arounds and preflights. Imagine if a Captain stuck his hand into a seat back pocket and was stuck with a hypodermic needle and now the flight was cancelled? Having pilots clean the planes does not seem like a smart practice and I've often seen AA FAs help clean aircraft on quick turnarounds.

[post="283539"][/post]​

Care to tell me how your union would react if the company utilized non union employees to perform tasks that "belong" to your work group?

You really want to tell me that some grievance will not be filed if someone were to encroach on your turf by trying to help out?

Debating with you is an act of futility. You ignore everything that does not fit with your agenda, including the disparity of employees per aircraft which is widely accepted by industry observers as the Achilles heel of the legacy carriers.

 

[Bob Owens]

TWAnr,Jul 24 2005, 03:01 PM]
Care to tell me how your union would react if the company utilized non union employees to perform tasks that "belong" to your work group?

Do you mean the TWU? Well I can tell you that they accept it every day. Often members try to challenge what appear to be violations only to be told "They can do that".

You really want to tell me that some grievance will not be filed if someone were to encroach on your turf by trying to help out?

You seem to have trouble understanding the concept of a contract.

Debating with you is an act of futility.


Only for those who can not present any facts or examples to back up their claims.

You ignore everything that does not fit with your agenda, including the disparity of employees per aircraft which is widely accepted by industry observers as the Achilles heel of the legacy carriers.


I have not ignored the point, I addressed it. You still have not presented any evidence that the disparity of employees per aircraft has anything to do with our union contract. In fact you ignore the fact that SWA is more heavily unionized than any other airline yet they are the ones that you used as an example to illustrate what you consider to be union induced inefficency at AA. With such a poor arguement its no wonder that you consider debating me an act of futlity, it has nothing to do with me, it has to do with your ill informed opinions not being able to stand up against the facts..

 

[TWAnr]

You still have not presented any evidence that the disparity of employees per aircraft has anything to do with our union contract. In fact you ignore the fact that SWA is more heavily unionized than any other airline yet they are the ones that you used as an example to illustrate what you consider to be union induced inefficency at AA. With such a poor arguement its no wonder that you consider debating me an act of futlity, it has nothing to do with me, it has to do with your ill informed opinions not being able to stand up against the facts..

[post="283615"][/post]​

Former ModerAAtor cited an example in an earlier post. You did not challenge him. Your union contract is full of antiquated and inefficient rules.

Here is what one industry analyst has to say:

Perhaps the most critical element of the successful low-fare airline business model is significantly higher labor productivity than traditional network carriers. The difference lies in labor productivity, not in unionization or even wage rates. According to a recent HBS Case Study written by a member of our team, Southwest is the “most heavily unionizedâ€￾ US airline and its salary rates are considered to be at or above average compared to the US airline industry. The low-fare carrier labor advantage is in much more flexible work rules that allow cross-utilization of virtually all employees (except where disallowed by licensing and safety standards). Such cross-utilization and a long-standing culture of cooperation among labor groups translate into lower unit labor costs. At Southwest in 4th quarter 2000, total labor expense per ASM was more than 25% below that of United and American, and 58% less than US Airways.

Carriers like Southwest have a tremendous cost advantage over network airlines simply because their workforce generates more output per employee. In 4th quarter 2001, Southwest produced 542,050 available seat-miles per employee, as compared to 369,790 at American and 373,400 at United. By this measure, the productivity of Southwest employees is over 45% higher than at American and United, despite the substantially longer flight lengths and larger average aircraft size of these network carriers.

The Airline Industry and current challenges

And another:

More will follow the example of Southwest Airlines, whose entire workforce, except managers, is unionized. By agreeing to contracts of eight to 10 years, with an opportunity to adjust them after five years if needed, union workers give Southwest executives the stability needed for long-range planning. They also accept flexible work rules aimed at pleasing customers while holding down costs, a formula that keeps the airline ahead of its rivals.

Kiplinger Business Forecasts

And yet another:

Union contracts do hinder productivity through restrictive work rules. Southwest has led the way in negotiating agreements that have more-flexible work rules. These more-flexible standards allow for greater cross-utilization of labor, resulting in much improved productivity. Labor expense per available seat-mile at Southwest is about 25% lower than at United and American, and about 50% lower than US Airways.

Legacy Airlines Could Learn from Low-Cost Competitors

Go ahead, keep your head buried in the sand.

 

[eolesen]

Am I the only one who finds it ironic that Bob the Mechanic continues to claim he knows more about the meaning of a contract or how to prove an argument with facts than TWAnr the Attorney?.....

 

[Bob Owens]

Former ModerAAtor cited an example in an earlier post. You did not challenge him.

Perhaps I missed it, refresh my memory.Just because I do not challenge every point he makes it does not mean that I am not in disagreement.


Your union contract is full of antiquated and inefficient rules.

Such as?


Here is what one industry analyst has to say:

Analysts or observers?Last time you said observers. Observers just look at the obvious, analysts typically dig a little deeper.

Perhaps the most critical element of the successful low-fare airline business model is significantly higher labor productivity than traditional network carriers. The difference lies in labor productivity, not in unionization or even wage rates. According to a recent HBS Case Study written by a member of our team, Southwest is the “most heavily unionizedâ€￾ US airline and its salary rates are considered to be at or above average compared to the US airline industry. The low-fare carrier labor advantage is in much more flexible work rules that allow cross-utilization of virtually all employees (except where disallowed by licensing and safety standards). Such cross-utilization and a long-standing culture of cooperation among labor groups translate into lower unit labor costs. At Southwest in 4th quarter 2000, total labor expense per ASM was more than 25% below that of United and American, and 58% less than US Airways.

Carriers like Southwest have a tremendous cost advantage over network airlines simply because their workforce generates more output per employee. In 4th quarter 2001, Southwest produced 542,050 available seat-miles per employee, as compared to 369,790 at American and 373,400 at United. By this measure, the productivity of Southwest employees is over 45% higher than at American and United, despite the substantially longer flight lengths and larger average aircraft size of these network carriers.

Well as I already told you AA has cross utilization. Its the way the company is set up that prevents them from using it. Rivalry between departments takes precedence over delivering the product. Perhaps the easiest way to cross utilize would be between Pax and cabin service however the company has resisted unionization of pax service so its not unreasonable for the union to resist giving up work to a non-union part of the company. Perhaps SWA takes a less adversarial position towards their unions. With the best pay rates and benifits going its obvious that the give and take goes both ways is it not? Despite that, the TWU has given AA the ability to cross utilize their members. Perhaps the author of the above article was unaware of that fact.


And another:

More will follow the example of Southwest Airlines, whose entire workforce, except managers, is unionized. By agreeing to contracts of eight to 10 years, with an opportunity to adjust them after five years if needed, union workers give Southwest executives the stability needed for long-range planning. They also accept flexible work rules aimed at pleasing customers while holding down costs, a formula that keeps the airline ahead of its rivals

So? Show me the language that supports the claim of more flexible work rules. How long is the term of your contract with your employer?

And yet another:
Union contracts do hinder productivity through restrictive work rules. Southwest has led the way in negotiating agreements that have more-flexible work rules. These more-flexible standards allow for greater cross-utilization of labor, resulting in much improved productivity. Labor expense per available seat-mile at Southwest is about 25% lower than at United and American, and about 50% lower than US Airways.

Go ahead, keep your head buried in the sand.

Articles written by industry analysts, (or are they observers?), who probably look more at spreadsheets than contracts, then rely on press releases and assumptions when commenting on labor are not very reliable. These exerpts certainly are not proof, just examples of like-minded opinions. The proof is in the contracts and as I've told you the company has tremendous leeway with their TWU contract which includes cross utilization. Once again, give me examples of the onerous terms in our contracts not generalized opinions that somebody else wrote.

 

[Bob Owens]

Am I the only one who finds it ironic that Bob the Mechanic continues to claim he knows more about the meaning of a contract or how to prove an argument with facts than TWAnr the Attorney?.....

[post="283795"][/post]​

Where did you see either of those claims?

The fact is that I'm challenging his assertions. All I've asked for are facts, instead he simply delivers cut and pasted articles that dont even mention AA.

All I ask for are the facts. Instead, as attorneys typically do when they dont have supporting "facts" he turns to fluff.

 

[lpbrian]

A question: Do mechanics at SWA (or any other LCC ) perform jobs other than Aircraft maintenance? (Changing seat cushions aside )

 

[Bob Owens]

A question: Do mechanics at SWA (or any other LCC ) perform jobs other than Aircraft maintenance? (Changing seat cushions aside )

[post="284021"][/post]​

From those I've spoken to they pretty much just stick to working on airplanes.

Over the past twenty six years that I've worked as a mechanic I've worked union and non-union. The fact is that whether its union or not the companies pretty much leave the mechanics alone, they dont bounce them all over the place simply to keep them busy. Mechanics are not treated like factory workers expected to stamp out a product at a steady rate, they are more like firemen, when they are needed they put extra effort to get the plane back in service as quick as possible.

 

[JFK777]

Miami is a mess for one reason and one reason only. The Latin mentality. This applies to every airline operating from Miami.

 

[WingNaPrayer]

Miami is a mess for one reason and one reason only. The Latin mentality. This applies to every airline operating from Miami.

[post="284286"][/post]​

...and what is "latin mentality"? I mean, I understand "cuban corruption" but latin mentality? That statement needs explanation.

 

[TWAnr]

...and what is "latin mentality"? I mean, I understand "cuban corruption" but latin mentality? That statement needs explanation.

[post="284834"][/post]​

Bigotry, pure and simple.

 

[L1011Ret]

Stereotyping on this BB? Oh, it cannot be...

 

[JFK777]

I feel I can a make such a statement because I am half Latin, I came into this world In Barranquilla, Colombia; I lived there for many years and after moving to the USA in the 1970's I continue to travel there often. The Miami to Barranquilla routre has been served over the years by Avianca, Aerocondor( they had an A300), Pan Am, Eastern and AA. A city which much to my chagrin AA doesn't serve any more. All my trips to Colombia have had some unpleasent element to them, AA has been the most pleasent, something that has only happened to me in Colombia.

I have traveled on Qantas to Australia, Singapore to Asia, British Airways, Delta and even Pan Am & TWA across the Atlantic in the 1980's and nothing ever compared to Miami and going to Colombia and its unpleasentness. Even JFK wasn't as bad as MIA going to Colombia. I have gone from Miami to London, in fairness, MIA was a far more pleasent airport going to Europe. I have also gone recently in 2005 to Argentina on Delta and that was a very pleasent trip.

TWAnr,

It would be "bigotry" if I wasn't a member of the tribe, but I am wether you like it or not. I may not be your kind of "latin" but then I am not 100% Latin so I look at the world through more then one culture.